In Conversation: EP5 I Hold You Close

Ezi  00:13

Welcome to Episode Five of In conversation, it's always been important to have and to know a sense of community. Each of us yearns to belong in our own way. On this episode of in conversation, I'm joined by Jela, Elvin, Jennifer and Terry, who talk to us about the communities that they work in and support, and the special importance of community in these times. They give us a roadmap for care, and an example of how to hold each other close. Let's get into it. Welcome. Welcome, everyone.Thank you so much for joining. So as you may know, we like to start with a general question, which is, what does it mean to you to live and be well, so I'll start with you Elvin.

Elvin Velasco  01:05

To me, actually, with this entire pandemic, it really like slowed me down to ground me of what it truly means, with that question. I think, I've been reiterating this in the past couple of months. Meaning to live well, and be well is to show up for yourself, to show up your to show up for yourself in whatever capacity that you can. Whether just be waking up, washing your face, putting some nutritious food in your body, and just showing up for your feelings and validating them. Because when you do that, you're better able to show up for your community and to be at the best of your own abilities, because you're putting yourself first. And I know that may be selfish, but at the long term, it is selfless, when you put yourself first so then you can put others afterwards. Yeah, that's what I believe in.

Ezi  02:05

And how about you Terry? I mean, you you were in a role where you have to think about well being for a lot of other people a lot of the time. So for you, what does it mean to live and to be well?

Terry Gardiner  02:16

That's a big question. And we probably could talk for a long time about that. For me, living well means being able to reflect on my day and to be at peace with the way the day has gone. And so that shifts and changes from day to day. And sometimes it's whether decisions that I've, made actions that I've taken, that I think about or try to learn from how I might do it differently, but ultimately, trying to live and show up in a way that I can be okay with after the moment has passed. And right now, a big part to, riff off of what Elvin was sharing, a big part of what living well looks like for me during these COVID Times has been just to be able to say out loud and to acknowledge, I'm not doing okay, today, or I'm kind of off balance right now. Or, you know what, maybe I need to just pause and I'll come back to this at another time, because I don't have what it takes right now. And to be able to say that out loud. Because very often those of us in helping professions are trained or get conditioned to have this sense that you know, we always have to be on or we always have to be, well, we always have to have the answer. And just to be able to say, you know what, right now, I don't know, or I don't have it. And just to be able to own that in an authentic and honest way is part of my focus on trying to live well right now.

Ezi  03:42

Mm mhmm. And Jela and Jennifer, both of you are in helping professions as well. Right. And, Jennifer, you've been doing a lot of taking care of your community. So what is living well, and, and being well mean for you in your position?

Jennifer Lau  03:58

I mean, I think that, you know, we're all kind of saying what you can't pour from an empty cup. And that's, you know, something that you hear often and you know, to be true, but it's, that's the hardest part, at least for me personally, is, you know, you're so busy taking care of everybody else, you forget about taking care of yourself. And sometimes it's easier to take care of other people than to take care of yourself too. So it could also be a conscious decision that you're doing. And being able to recognize that has been a huge learning experience for me and me like I'm continue to learn that all the time. But the pandemic has definitely, you know, definitely exacerbated that idea. And it isn't until you know you have sleepless nights, your anxiety is super high, you don't feel all that you have to take that moment to really slow down. So maintaining that good mental and physical health is definitely what being well is for me. Definitely something that I'm still are working on, but I know that if I can manage my stress, then I'm in a much better place.

Ezi  05:05

Mm hmm. And how about you Jela?

Jela Tubei  05:08

Um, I think, again, just sort of summarize what everybody's saying. But for me, it comes down to two words, and that's peace and balance. My entry into fitness and wellness comes from a hospitality background, that's very high stress, a lifestyle that isn't necessarily conducive to good physical and, or mental health. And stepping back from that, and going into fitness has taught me to just find a balance, whether it's through work, whether it's like, through my expectations for myself, and and or my clients, and also being at peace with it. So just especially now, it's finding a balance of like, how much can you actually do, going back to what Terry said, it's like, some days, you just you don't have it in you to do anything other than, like, get out of bed. And some days, you have days where you're extra productive. And then understanding that that balance will shift back and forth. So it's just finding balance and peace in your life.

Ezi  06:14

Yeah, I mean, that balance and peace factor, I think is particularly important now. And it's definitely two good points of reflection for for folks at home who are listening, how do you find balance? How do you find peace? But for the work that you do, Elvin, tell us about what it is that you do first of all, and how you take care of others in that work?

Elvin Velasco  06:36

Oh, yeah, it's, as I introduced like I do, I'm a, I'm a human being with multiple hats, super interchangeable [Laughter]. But yeah, I like I care for children. Like that's like my first love, like taking care of little children, whether it be infants, preschoolers, toddlers. And a lot of that is me being in tune with their needs holistically being in tune with their needs, understanding where they're coming from in child centered approach. And I kind of, I've kind of taken that approach and like, replicated it in the communities that I like work in that is not early childhood. So I work with a lot of youth, with ANAKBAYAN-Toronto, so Filipino, Filipinx youth, where a lot of is community organizing and mobilizing our diaspora here, in like, kind of taking down the the rotten systems back home, but also here in Tkaronto. So it's a lot of like, yes, like, going back with with Jela said, it's like, find that peace and balance of like, how do I like do this for my communities? Because it's a lot of energy to care for them in the most holistic way? And how do I show up for myself holistically, so I could better provide the best care for these community members, because they go through an array of emotions, and they go through array of things. I don't know if you've ever worked with or interacted with a toddler or preschooler, but when they're not when their needs are not getting met, they will let you know [Laughter]. And when we look at that in like, as adults, we're the same thing! Like we scream, we shout, we get restless. And that means like our bodies are telling us, okay, you need to listen to yourself, and you need to co-regulate with someone. So I think being as a caregiver or educator in that sense, like, it's a lot of that. It's a lot of like, how do I care for these communities in the best way possible? Yeah.

Ezi  08:56

And how about you, Terry, you also have to take care of a lot of diverse human beings, right human beings. And so how do you what is the work that you do? And how do you care for others in that work?

Terry Gardiner  09:11

Well, currently, I'm the Manager of Student Mental Health and Wellness at the Faculty of Law at U of T. And in that role, I'm responsible for developing and maintaining a strategy around student mental health, developing and implementing programming. And also helping students navigate the system. So the resources that are available at the law school, the resources that are available at the university, but also resources in the community. And that can be pretty broad ranging. Because we have a...first off the legal profession is one that is very competitive, very high stress in a lot of ways, and also leads people feeling depleted in a lot of ways. And so one of the ways that I tried to focus on is building community within the law school, but also connections to all of the other communities around the law school. There's no way that I think that I could be the person connecting everybody, but trying to support folks to develop the capacity to build and connect within themselves. So one of the things that I helped to support is a peer mental health program. So students who identify that they're coming to law school with already existing challenges connected to mental health, matching them up with a student already at the law school, who will understand, have some sort of context for what it's like to be in this space, to share the lived experience, the way that we know a professional could never do. But also helping to make sure that that person is going to make sure to offer bits of information and connections to the other resources that are available. I try to be as proactive as possible, and also to set clear expectations, because for me, that's really important. So one of the things that I try to do up front is to say to students coming in, look, the legal profession is a beast. But let's just own that right up front, you're coming to law school, you've worked super hard, I'm not going to BS you and tell you this is going to be super easy. It is going to be hard. So if we know that it's going to be hard, how can I help you connect to the support the resources, so that you can deal with hard because that's the real deal. That's what it is. And I think that that's really important, because if we kind of allow people to kind of go along thinking, hh, it's going to be and it might be, and then that just sets up for a failure or an upset. And then it's not just upset at the issue, but it's upset at us as an institution for not being fully upfront. And that's not always easy. The other piece that I always come back to is, you know, if you're going to be a lawyer out there, you're going to be dealing with some major stuff. Like people don't come to lawyers, when life is great, when they're all happy when you know, it's easy street. So let's just acknowledge the stuff that folks are going to bring to you is in that realm. And so the work we're going to ask you to do is to help you get ready for that reality when you leave here. Because if it's been all nice and soft and easy, and you only had an experience of soft and easy, you are not going to be prepared to do the hard work that we know is coming. And not only will that fail you. But that means you're going to be set up to fail your clients. So setting those expectations for me is really important. And I prefer to do that upfront and have somebody say, "Nah, not for me, I'm out!" Better to save the $40,000 per year, than find that out after the fact, right? So if it means that you're mad at me upfront, that's okay, I can take that. I don't want you to be mad later and say I wish you had told me before I spent all this big money; before I put in all this time and effort. And I rather have that kind of open conversation. Because when we don't do that, that sets people up to be anxious, to be depressed, to be really, really disappointed, not just in the work, but in the whole system. And it's harder to come back from that. So that's part of what I try to focus on is the preventative. And also to say, we have a responsibility to set up the supports. Well, that's just working with you. I'm not trying to tell you what to do or how to do it. But try to set a clear expectation for what the work is.  I also have a small private practice psychotherapy in the community, where I work with individuals, couples, on a range of mental health experiences, particularly trying to be available to POC communities. Because what I heard all the way through my training and through my years, you know, as a social worker is that...I actually have a good friend who's been in the field for many years, and she keeps referring to me as the brown unicorn. Because she keeps saying, I'm looking, I'm waiting, like, where's there another black gay man who's doing therapy like, that's who I need. There are people who need that, who don't have that experience, and they don't want to talk to some other people who don't understand them. So trying to see where and how I can be available and if my lived experience might be of benefit to be able to offer that in service to community.

Ezi  14:17

Mm mhmm. I think there's some things that connect with personal training when you're talking about that progressive care, right? Definitely that that setting you up step by step to get to that end goal. And also the private practice of it too. So Jela, let's take you maybe next about what you do and and how you care for others and what you do. And I

Jela Tubei  14:39

guess that one's an easy one for personal training because our entire job is to care for other people. I find it's... but it's also, it's interesting because it's more than just teaching someone how to squat. It also....When you meet someone, especially because I really enjoy working with women who've never really been to the gym, and the gym isn't necessarily considered a safe space for women, not in the sense of harassment, but it's just like, generally known as a "masculine" space. And so it's teaching women to sort of take up space, in an environment that is theirs, they belong to it as well. So it's been, it's an interesting experience, you know, carrying and teaching someone how to be physically stronger, to be emotionally stronger, being in that space and taking ownership of their own bodies. It's, it's, it's hard to explain, because there's so many aspects you talk about, like social pressures on how the female body is supposed to look. And so if someone comes to you, and they say that I want, it's always like, and Jen can attest to this, it's like, I want to get a bigger butt. And I'm, like, great, and that's where it starts. But it's never where it ends, it usually ends up being something else. It's, it ends up being a space, an hour for that person to be themselves, it ends up being almost a therapy session, it can be depending on the person. It's, it manifests different things, like I've had a session where the person cried through the whole thing, and that's what they needed. So I guess that's just how I care for people. I mean, it's more than just an hour it's the time that you spend talking to them, and you get to know them, you get to know their families, and you build relationships with people, and you become a safe person for them that sort of detached from the rest of their lives.

Ezi  16:35

So body, certainly, but also some soul in there as well. Yeah. And how about you, Jennifer?

Jennifer Lau  16:41

So I'm a personal trainer and holistic nutritionist. So that's like my full time gig. And as a gym owner, so we manage a staff of five trainers, I have two business partners, and then quite a large community, of members and clients. So personally, as a personal trainer, I work one on one with clients. So caring for them through fitness, but also through, you know, through guidance and giving them the support and confidence that they can apply outside of the gym, we know that, you know, a session is 60 minutes, up to 60 minutes. But so much of life is outside of the 60 minutes that we share together. So being able to care for clients outside of that is being able to instill those qualities in them when you're working together so they can take that into the real world. And same goes for our small group training services as well.

Ezi  17:41

I think all of you have touched on the importance of really building people up in community and understanding their circumstances beyond, you know, what might appear in front of you at that at that one point. And so we often hear the idea of self care, and I was, you know, doing the Facebook scroll as we all do, every now and then, and came across, you know, a company advertising 10 products for self care, right? Because it's become this thing where you buy this thing and you use this thing for self care. But you know, Elvin, you talked about the fact of taking care of your community, right, and how that community care actually promotes a space for selves to exist. So how does self care relate to communities and relate to the work that you do?

Elvin Velasco  18:27

By communities believe self care, so neoliberal. [Laughter] It's, it's capitalist in its nature now. But yeah, community care is so important. We co-dream, we co-work, we co-live and exist with one another. That is like, if we were in a pre COVID, we would like communally eat together, we'd make meals together, we'd read things together. Like online now we do readings together, and we just like discuss. We read poetry together. We co-dream of a new garden that is not rooted in these like, just rotten systems that don't serve us. So it's really just like, looking within our communities and looking at our needs, because we're all...I always like the analogy of, we're all different plants, and we're all growing in different rates. And we're all different, but we're all beautiful, in whatever ways that we are and how do you like, support each other in these communities in the best that we can so giving more space for folks? Because they need more space, folks to cry because they need to cry. Really, like things that are tangible. I don't necessarily think anymore [that] Self Care is like I have to buy things on like Facebook to make me happy like this one, one stop thing that like oh, it'll cure me, but only cure you for like 10 minutes. I think the longevity and vitality within Community Care is showing up for each other, really looking at your love languages. And I think, as of recently showing up kind of touches upon everything like whether it be your physical presence on a zoom call, words of affirmations of have like saying that you're doing a great job right now you're doing the best that you can, you giving gifts as in like monetary donations to help us support in such a financial hard time. There's acts of service, so like, if you want me to cook you food, I will do that for you. Or if you want me to get you groceries, I will do that for you. And just quality time, like online or on a walk. So I think that that is what self care is now to me on that's my positionality on it, and how that really like has connected all my communities together and how we've kind of made it this far during the pandemic, because we really cultivated that garden and like, kind of tended to it, to ensure that it's always lush, it's always like, growing and that everyone is supported, and no one's left behind in the garden. So yeah, that's, yeah, that's what self care looks like.

Ezi  21:17

Terry, you touched on the point that as a clinician, as a Black gay man in particular, you use that as an act of, you know, kind of taking up space and being a person in community who others who might not have that connection [otherwise] can actually go to. So for you how does self care relate to communities, how does self care relate to the work that you do?

Terry Gardiner  21:39

I guess it comes back to you know, that old thing from the airplane that everybody always laughs at, you know, you got to put your own mask on before you try to help somebody else. Because if you run out of oxygen, you're no help to anybody. If I run out of oxygen, I'm no help to anybody. So for me, it starts with making sure that I have the energy in my tank. Like Jen said earlier, one of the things that I try to pay attention to is I can't give away what I don't have. And so I have to make sure that I have some energy and that I've been taken care of. And that may be selfish. But in this sense, I don't see selfish as being a bad thing, if the purpose is really to then be able to share it. One of the things I've certainly been working on in the last nine months is to take more responsibility for speaking my experience and speaking my truth. Because for me, that's an act of self care. How many times have I been in experiences or left rooms where either I'm the only Black person or I'm the only queer person, and I leave going:I wish I had, I should have, I, if only I had said that. And so now, I'm just trying to pay attention in the moment and saying that thing. Because what my experience is, and there's good evidence and research that shows, when we have those experiences, and we'll leave, it is eating us from the inside. And so my self care is if I have to look around and go, "Wait a minute, we're having this conversation. There are no indigenous people at this table". I just say that out loud, I put it on the table without feeling like I have to be responsible for fixing it. But I'm just clear, I'm not taking that with me, because that's a poison, that's only going to harm me if I keep it inside of me. And so that's something that I do is care for myself, and also what I hear, and it's amazing in the zoom world, inevitably, I will have an experience like that or say something like that and three people will private message me to say thank you for saying that. And ultimately, this thing that I'm doing just to save my own DNA is connecting me to others. And I'm hearing them say thank you like, like you're saying the thing that I was thinking and I wish I could say and I feel some connection with you as a result of that. So for me, that's an important piece. And also because I hear that people who came before me seeing so clearly and loudly in their experience and in their writing and in their actions that the not speaking is a silencing, which means that I'm agreeing with and going along with systems of oppression. So even when it feels like it's overwhelming at heart, and even if and many times there might be a consequence for me for saying that. I'm choosing or trying really hard to do that. Because I'm also hearing the other voice that's telling me when you don't do it, there's also a consequence. So for me, that's that's an action of self care that I'm trying to be more intentional about and I find the the outcome seem to be connecting me in community as well.

Ezi  24:35

Mm hmm. Jela, you and I were joking at the beginning before the show started about the tea that we were drinking, the tea that you were drinking, you know, and making those little conscious choices that bring you joy. So how do what is your self care look like? What is your self care in community look like?

Jela Tubei  24:55

My personal self care looks like... it depends on this situation. I think self care changes depending on personality. Mine is a lot of alone time. That's something that I find what we do, myself and Jen, and probably the rest of you as well, because we're always so giving and, you know, everybody, it's not that they're taking, but it's like we're giving to them. Time to myself to sort of re-energize is something that's important for me. My self care also looks like working out, that's where it all started and that's what I love, and what it looks like in community....For communities or in community?

Ezi  25:35

In or for whatever you want it to be.

Jela Tubei  25:39

Um, I think it depends on the person and what their particular needs are. I think what I like about "self care", in quotes, is that as much as  it has become a little bit more capitalistic, it's that it's something that we're becoming more aware of. So as much as it comes down to going for a massage and or whatever monetary thing that they're expecting you to buy, it's good that we are becoming aware that we do need to take time and space and whatever that means for each individual. And again, like communities, as a Black woman my needs, you're going to be different than, like, a white woman, possibly, I assume.

Ezi  26:19

Yeah, and that self reflective piece that you and Terry are touching on is really important. You know, taking care of yourself enough to know that some...that you don't always need to be the source of salvation for everyone. Creating space for yourself to just be. To be in your own reality without having to take ownership for others. Yeah. So Jennifer, I want to ask you just a little bit of a different question. We've been talking about communities and you know, community care as self care. So what are some ways in which you are taking care of communities that is also reflective of the types of values that you hold at the center of your version of self care.

Jennifer Lau  27:09

Um, you know, like, I, I grew up like, with the privilege of being able to participate in sports and stuff. So I can understand the importance, like I said, of what being a part of a team and going through the adversity of being an athlete can provide later on in life, those skills are, you know, definitely transferable, and you take them with you. You know, when I started in the fitness industry, I didn't see anyone that looked like me, it was, it was really awkward, it was hard to kind of, you know, I, I definitely tried to blend in, I tried to not stick out, but I was always the odd one out, one as a female, and also, as a woman of color. So creating these spaces now so that these kids can look up to someone and see them and see themselves in these spaces. So they can aspire to be these, you know, professionals and see themselves as someone that they get inspired to be is super important. Because unless we can see that happen. I mean, we it's really hard to imagine that we can accomplish those things.

Ezi  28:16

Yeah, I think that's really dope. Like, when we think about self care, it goes, not only forward, but also back, what are the things I would have wished for? What is the kind of world that I would like to live in? That I would like to create for others? Right. And so I think it's really dope, that you do that. And it's clear that your values are reflected in that. Jela you had something else to add on this question?

Jela Tubei  28:44

I actually, I wanted to add to that, because Terry spoke to something that kind of resonated with me. And we, if we're taking care of ourselves, it's an example for other people. So I am vocal about things that I don't want to do. I...I worked for an organization and there was a lot of expectation and things that I didn't agree with. And so I would just not do it, not not do it, I would say no and like explain my reasons. And and at the time, there were other young trainers who were just being taught to say yes, and yes, and yes. And so as two of them were leaving, they said, "Hey, I appreciate that you...." I was like, oh! Because I was known as like... I don't want to seem like the strong black female who just didn't stand for things.... Not really a title I love it's kind of one of those things, but one of the things they said is like "watching you navigate this company has taught me to stand up for myself". And in my head, I was just setting boundaries for my own self. And to them, they were seeing that, Oh, this is okay, it's fine. And so they left being stronger individuals and for what their needs were. So it's kind of what Terry said is like what we do for ourselves is an example for other people. For their self care and their choices by themselves.

Ezi  30:02

Yeah, not only an example, but an action for others too. So it is self care and you are also taking care of your community for sure, in ways that you might not have constructed to do that through. But, you know, as you're saying that you, that you're the black woman who who does the thing anyway, even though you don't like the title. And there's definitely a lot of research and theory around why that is a problematic notion, but you have, along with Jennifer built a community, that is for racialized women--- racialized people more broadly. So tell me about the communities that you've built and why and how perhaps you also build those.

Jela Tubei  30:45

It all started for me ....Well, as I started training, my my first trainer was a Black woman, which is incredible. And as I started to get in the industry a little bit more, I started to notice that one, the black female body is sexualized, and, but there's not a lot of us that are in it. And then I also noticed that they we just weren't seen, we were not, we're not there, like you don't have that many trainers who people want to go to because you know, that are of color in our community, and I'm Kenyan. So as a Kenyan, we don't necessarily encourage girls to play sports. And so you don't see a lot of that. And I didn't really think much about it. And then as I was progressing in the industry, I was like, wait, why doesn't this happen? And so I'd have conversations with my friends and say, with women of color, and be like, hey, you should try. And they're like, Yeah, but you know, I don't want to do this, because I don't want to look like a man. But I want to look like, you know, you. And I'm like but I don't look like a man, you want to look like me. But like none of it really made sense. And so, in my head, I was like, you're just not seeing people and women... and you're not seeing examples of it. So let's create something. Like I just wanted to see more. That's really where it came down to for me. I had made a post on Instagram about other women of color who were doing things and it was meant to be in Toronto, and outside. Jen and I were introduced by a good friend of ours years ago. And she reached out to me, she's like, we should do something about this. So we started The Real Toronto, which is-- and feel free to jump in at any point, Jen--we started The Real Toronto and it was initially just like, hey, like, who are all these women, let's get together and get to know each other. It's an organization for networking in the fitness and wellness industry. So we've got yoga instructors... nutritionists, personal trainers, people who own gyms. And it was also a way of, if you want to come into the industry, how do you navigate that? If you wanted to work for a person of color, how do you meet these individuals? And so it's sort of grown into something else. And we work with women of color, who are creating products for wellness industry.

Ezi  33:09

Yeah, that's really dope. And you guys are coming up on two years. So congratulations to y'all. So postsecondary, is kind of notorious for not being the most inclusive of space, both in terms of access to the space, financially; diversity in the space, [etc]. But how have you really tried to work around bringing in more community for racialized people in that space? In the work that you're doing?

Terry Gardiner  33:38

Yeah, it's a very interesting space. What I try to do is work with the, the systems or the structures that are already in place. So for example, just a couple of days ago, I had a conversation with a colleague at another part of the university who is looking to try to build some more diversity, where they are. I said, well, remember, you don't have to build a structure, the structure's are already in place. Every University has a mission, vision and values, and they all sound great. So start there. Use their words, use their language, use their structure, and then build on that. So if excellence is the number one thing, I'd like to know how we can have excellence if a huge chunk of knowledge, experience and presence is not here. So use the structure, use the rules that are already in place to try to build to the goals that we have, because I don't think that what we're looking for in terms of community is at cross purposes with the mission, vision and values. It's just where and how and maybe who's been implementing it that has gotten in the way. And that's one of the things that I think is really important is even to start with how we're seeing the system, because a supremacist system would be happy for us to start over, to try to reinvent the wheel every time. And that just puts us further and further behind those of us who are looking for x I just go, Well, no, the wheel is already here, I just need to be able to use that wheel, I just need to be able to fit it in, maybe shape it to the purpose that we're looking for. So that's a big part of it for me is the building awareness and looking at the system differently. I was very fortunate that when I started at the university, so I did my master's degree at U of T, and then I got hired right after to work at the Faculty of social work where I trained, and just so grateful, so serendipitous that at the same time I started, a person who was the Associate Dean Academic, were reported to with Charmaine Williams, the only Black prophet in the unit. So I had for the first five years, the gift of being able to report to somebody who understood, and in many ways, who opened my eyes and taught me and showed me through her example, I saw so much that I never would have been able to see on my own. So I need to put it out there that my experience, I think, was unique in many ways, because during that same time, I would say that it took me three years working at this institution that has 100,000, community members, it took me three years to meet another Black man who worked in higher education. So three years of being the only one in every room I'm going to, and that takes a toll. So part of it is finding the place, finding the community, but also finding the people who are aligned with your vision, even if they don't look like or sell like, or have the same lived experience, who are the people who share the vision, and also being willing to be part of a lot of different communities. So for the last number of years, I've been co-chair of queer youth to employees, a great space to be in. I volunteered and been part of the December 6 planning at the university, I don't identify as female, but the issues that are important to women in terms of gendered violence, that's something that, yeah, I need to be a part of. And then looking intentionally. For a number of years at social work, I had a title that included equity and diversity. So being able to look at who actually gets to come to the University, you're talking about access. And one of the things that I found is that it was really important for me to use the tools that higher education gave me. So I went to a graduate program where they said all the way through, we are evidence informed. We are based on the research. And so then I knew that I need to speak that language in order to share my message. And so it's a what's the evidence? What does the research tell us? And here's how it's a problem if our student body is not representative of our community, our Canadian community. And so it was about using what they taught me about evidence to say, here's how I'm going to take this and put it back to you if we only have 1% black students, when black people are between 10 and 13% of the Canadian population, that's a problem. And here's how we're not meeting our mission and our mandate, if we're only at 1% black students. So here's how I will make it meaningful to you, so you the system have to start to change, as opposed to I as a person, or the black community needs to do something differently. Now the problem isn't with us, the problem is with the institution, with the institution getting in line, not with what I think, but in getting in line with its own mission, vision and values that it has on its website that it said it's committed to. And so I think that frame of thinking was really important to me, to be able to first get the people who have access and power online, to be able to work with a great Dean and great Associate Dean to say, Okay, so how do we look at our admissions process? So we can start to evaluate differently. And it's not that the bar changes, but maybe how we're looking at what we're looking at so far, say we're looking at knowledge, whose knowledge gets valued. If we're say, we're looking at experience, what experience really is important in order to be an excellent social worker? Is it just grades? Or is it about what we've done, or what we know about people or about the range of people? And if there's nobody in our body, who has knowledge of indigenous communities, then when that person shows up, we better value and prioritize that one. Because that is even more needed within our community. And so it's a part of having those kind of conversations and grateful that, you know, seeing shifts over the years, so the student body shifts, and then going well, who's teaching those students? Yeah, you know, if if those students are coming with those expectations, we need people teaching them who actually are going to see them and hear them and understand their needs. Because you can't educate people. If you're not even seeing them. You can't do that effectively. The last piece, I would say right now, I'm fortunate that black students at the law school are inviting me to their spaces and trying to build and support community there. And really just trying to remind them that their uplift is important, but it's not their job to change anybody else. Because that's the other piece, that's important. I think that we who have experienced marginalization have a responsibility to find our voice and to claim our voice. But it's not up to me to educate or train or fix anybody else for their problems. That's their work to do. I have enough on my plate already. And so part of it for me is to be able to work with young people to say, you know, I love you, I support you, I see you. And let me just pause you baby and say, here's your limit, you let them go do what they need to do on their part. Like it is not up to YOU to fix other people, especially if it's a problem that you did not cause, you did not start, is not of your making. Because trust me, you're going to need your energy, you're going to need your breath. And you do not need to be giving it to people who frankly, may not even be interested in hearing.

Ezi  41:09

For those who can't see, well nobody can see everybody is snapping their fingers, enjoying, enjoying what Mr. Gardner has shared with us. Um, but you know, on a, on a serious note, I think that's so important that piece about really understanding the systems that you're in, taking a step back to actually look at them and see what you have to work with. Because sometimes reshaping a community is actually...might be more fruitful work than necessarily building a whole new one. And that's not always going to be the case. Sometimes you do need to step out and build your own. Like Jela was saying earlier about building their own space. But there's fruit in stepping back and looking at what you have to work with. For sure. Elvin, you do a lot of community building.

Elvin Velasco  41:52

Yeah.

Ezi  41:53

So tell me about some of the communities that you've worked to build and how and why.

Elvin Velasco  41:58

It's just so like, what Jela, Jennifer and Terry had said, like, encapsulates everything that like, I've done, like, especially what Terry just shared, like, my ...our thing is like, it's like, yeah, like, like, the systems like we want to, like rebuild it. Like, ideally we want to, but sometimes it's like us just like playing the system. Like play, play, play the system, then play the system. So it's like, how do you like, look at the cogs in the wheel? And how do we throw a wrench in the cog? And like, really, like, stir things up? That's what my communities do. We really as like educators, working..and students working in early childhood education, like children's voices are not being heard. They're like, low tier, they have they have no say, with what anything like any government policy, anything in regards to childcare, same thing with students, we have no rights to say these things. Our dissent is like taken down by administration, and for what, like profit? Economy? So a lot of my community work and building is what like Terry has said, it's a lot of like, reclaiming our power back, reclaiming our truth, stepping into them. And really, like reminding students, reminding youth that you have a voice and your voice is so valued, because it's your future. It's our future, at the end of the day. These white supremacist structures served these people, and it doesn't serve us because the majority is actually people of color. So it is our rights and is our truth to reclaim. And part of me building up is, yeah, like, as Terry shared, and as Jela and Jennifer shared is like, being that embodiment and being that inspiration and role model. And that representation that these children, students, future advocates, because we all have power within us. It's, it's it's not, it's not non existent, it's there. It just needs to be tapped into. It needs to be unlocked. And part of that is, like what all of us have shared. It's like doing the work within our communities and ensuring that we create those connections. And we create those bridges for these communities to to cross and like that they're welcome. And that when they're ready, we'll embrace them, like we're gonna embrace them, especially like in this conversation right now, I've also noticed there's no trans representation in our podcast. Right? So that's a part of the work that I'm currently doing, where trans folks, they time and time again, they always lead the revolutionary charge within advocacy, especially our Black, Indigenous Trans people of color. And that is always important for me to highlight for children's rights, for Students rights, for educators rights, because it's something that we don't talk about very often, because we live in a binary world. And especially me being a queer non binary individual, it is so important for me to have this representation and to have this platform to advocate for these folks. Because part of me building them up is like, giving them a platform, right? It's, it's to create workshops for them is to create events for them as like Jennifer and Jela does for women of color. It's like to create that space that has not been created; and how do we do that effectively, and in the most safest and most caring way. And I think it's so integral because as like, I'm certain like us growing up, we we need, we need representation. And we need like folks like us to, for children to feel affirmed. And just like it took for Terry, three years to feel affirmed, being in a space with another Black man, it's a similar thing that I go through being a Filipino, queer, non-binary person, in a white, female oriented sector. I'm always othered, and part of my process is how do I ensure that when I speak my truth, and when I reclaim it, that is a part of my community building, and building up other students, children and educators that are not in this conversation, and they're not in this room? So part of that is the work that I do.

Ezi  46:36

Yeah, for sure. Um, I really like how you pointed out the piece about, definitely about trans women and representation their trans people really immersive representation there. But also about children. You know, I think we don't talk a lot about how age can factor into some of our, of our work. And whether that be elderly people or children, because they're both on those extremes of once you reach there, it's kind of like, we'll let you know what we want to do with you rather than actually putting them at the center of our discussion. So and I think now, in particular, with COVID, lives, children are being radically reshaped, right, just in terms of how they interact on a day to day with others, because there's the truly cut off interaction right now.

Terry Gardiner  47:21

Well, if I can for a minute too I think the other piece that I think it's really fascinating is that having been an early childhood educator and taught in that sector, I know that there's a whole lot of work that goes in to supporting young children and their development. So early childhood educators are highly skilled, highly trained, really important people within our society, who don't get paid very much and don't get a lot of respect at all.

Elvin Velasco  47:51

Nope!

Terry Gardiner  47:52

And yet, it took this crisis, when suddenly, people could not just drop their kids off at daycare. Suddenly, like, Oh, my God, we need to have the daycares open. We need to certify them as essential workers, all of a sudden, we recognize and realize that work. So I also want to surface that I think this, what some people are calling crisis, is also opportunity, because it is giving us an ability to see and to hear. And I hope that we're noticing that, because I know many folks who've devoted their lives and I can say I've done a lot of things in my life, and being in that room where you have 24 three year olds who need your attention, and who all have their own mind, and their own plan for what's going to happen. Like that is not easy work. That is...you you need to have the training. And I mean, like the power training that Jen and Jela talking about, like strength, you need to have the endurance, you need to have the cognitive abilities. And you also need to have a whole level of patience. And then you have to be prepared to deal with the parents and all of their stuff. Like so these are highly trained essential workers. And it should not have taken a crisis for us to recognize that. But now that we do have the crisis, I hope we're not gonna forget that when COVID passes away.

Ezi  49:15

Hmm, absolutely. And definitely our language around who is skilled and who is not. Yeah, opportunity for change there. And Jen, you've been talking a lot about that in the media too, right around the necessity for wellness spaces, and what and what the pandemic has shown us about that. So maybe let's get into some of that.

Jennifer Lau  49:35

Well, during the initial lockdown. So back in March, a couple weeks after that, we launched a coalition called Save the Health and Wellness Coalition and it was really just an answer or our answer as small business owners in the fitness and wellness space to kind of come together and ask, we were essentially asking for the same thing. So all of a sudden, your competition now become your allies, because the ground has now been leveled, everyone's in the same situation. And it just felt like if we were as a unified voice presenting our concerns and issues with the government, it would be much louder and better heard than if we were trying to petition and lobby the government individually. So that's been kind of keeping me busy for the last nine to 11 months. And it's, it's interesting, because being in the industry, and having gone through some of the lobbying work and efforts, has really taught us that although we're in it, we understand the importance of health and wellness and our clients and our members, those people that are involved in it, definitely understand the importance of it and why we should prioritize it. But having now the challenge to educate the people that are sitting at the decision making table has been the biggest obstacle. There, we we as an industry don't have huge paid lobbyists like as in comparison to, you know, the airlines or the hospitality industry, for example, who are going to petition for us and have, you know, a loud enough voice for them to consider us when they're making decisions about lockdowns, restrictions, and so forth. The irony, and the frustration is that you know, and you'll hear it very, you know, often now, especially in the last few months during the winter, is the rise of mental health. The Rrisk and the rise of mental health, and then suicide, depression, the need to go out and exercise as an essential service. So we're in a stay at home order right now, but we're allowed to leave for essential services, including exercise. So we know it's important. But why are we treating gyms like, with the least amount of respect, and weight, as the government has been, like, for example, are reopening stages were left in the last stage along with nightclubs, strip clubs, and, you know, music venues, that sort of thing. But you're telling us that you can leave your home during a stay at home order for exercise. So we know it's important. But, though, so it feels like the government speaking at a two sides of their mouth. That's the frustrating part is, you know, being able to get to that decision table and get to someone who will fight for us as hard as we have been fighting for ourselves. And we don't do it for us, like we're not in this industry to make money [Laughter]. We're here because we care about the health and well being of our members in our community. So, um, you know, that's, that's what, that's what we're working on now. And, like, you know, we're not going to give up because we're so passionate about what we do. And we just want the government to listen to us, because we know that it affects so many like children, youth, the elderly, like everybody. It's not just, you know, the millennials, or whoever they might think, can survive without this.

Ezi  52:55

And, you know, definitely, we all want to respect, you know, stay at home order in terms of its capacity to keep people safe, and trying to minimize contact, indoors and things like that. And I know that that's definitely top of mind for you all as well. So certainly for those listening, it's not the gym, folks, they just come to work out and ignore COVID.

Jennifer Lau  53:18

Absolutelty not! [Laughter] I mean like, because we care so much about our community and our members like health and wellness, the last thing we would do is jeopardize that. So we're not saying come in and expose yourself to any type of risk, if anything, before we even reopened the the fitness industry, because as we're under such high scrutiny, we knew that we had to take extra measures to make sure that everyone was taken care of. Because all eyes were on us. Everyone was already saying it's dangerous to go to the gym, even though the data will present like the complete opposite of that rhetoric. Yeah, the industry is quite committed and dedicated to making sure that everyone stays safe when we return. Right.

Ezi  54:01

So we're talking about communities, it's you're asking [the government] to be in conversation with you so you can do what's best for every community. Right?

Jennifer Lau  54:08

Absolutely. Yeah.

Ezi  54:10

As we continue to reflect on COVID-19 How has the need for community and for closest change? And I would say either, for better or for worse, and so maybe I'll start with you, Terry.

Terry Gardiner  54:22

I don't think we've ever needed community more. The pandemic I think really just has cracked open a lot of what has always been a part of our society. And I don't think it's just the pandemic. COVID really has just created the perfect scenario. So we had to start looking at the racial inequity. And I'm old enough to remember all of the black men who've been killed before George Floyd. But I think what and this is just my perspective. But I think what George Floyd's murder did, because it happened during a global pandemic is that we didn't have the ability or the opportunity to look away. We it took away all of this distractions that we had allowed ourselves to be taken away by before. And so this one happened at a time when we didn't have anything else. And so even when we would have for our own psyche, paused and tried to look at something else, it precluded us from doing that. So we had to start seeing, we had to start feeling the pain. And in a way that was connecting us, because it's been amazing to see the people coming out, marching in the streets, the people actually talking, the people actually acting. And yeah, there are people who are criticizing and saying you only now woke up, but you know, what, if you're at least awake now, I will take that. And what I appreciate is that it's not just one community or one group of people, lots of people are saying this inequality in our society is no longer okay. And I I cannot sit silently and allow that to happen. So, so I think in some ways, right now, community is even more important, and people are seeking community even more, we are physically required to be separate. And I think that's important. But that doesn't preclude us from being socially connected. So even having this conversation that we're having right now, we might not have been having it in this way, if not for COVID. There are many people who I've met and connected with, because of COVID. And so I hope we can take those positive pieces. I would say, one of the things I've learned and I'm encouraging folks is, you know, do you have at least one social connection with another human being every day? And it's about you get to decide how? So is it about you're texting somebody? Is it that you're making a phone call? If you are done with zoom and find it too exhausting, will you go for a walk with somebody but stay six feet apart from them while you go for a walk? What are the ways that we can find? Because we are social animals, none of us are meant to walk this earth alone. But right now, we just can't physically do it with hugs and kisses for people who don't live in the same house with us. So how can we find a way and I have faith that human beings are resilient, we have been through a whole lot, there's more coming. But I have the faith that as a species, we have the ability to do this. It just takes the time and the effort and the fact that if we are able to and if we're willing to we can do it together. And there are lots of simple ways. One of the things... I I'm totally social media resistant. I finally went on Instagram once the pandemic started. And one of the things I do is I take a morning walk and I do it before 8am because I'm not about being on the sidewalks with a whole bunch of other people. So I do it super early, I started taking a camera with me and I take pictures every day and what I post like a picture every day. And they're all these people that are seeing and are commenting and are connecting with me and they're saying oh, I get to see what, what it looks like on your walks. And, and even though it is not the same as what community looked like before. It's a different kind of community. It's a new community. And I'm able to connect in ways that I wasn't before. So what are the ways that we can keep trying? And finding the way that works for you, because it's individual and lots of people will need different things?

Ezi  58:40

Yeah, for sure. All right. Okay, Jela. So, thinking about COVID-19? What are some communities that are most on your mind? And what is kind of the need for closeness that you're seeing now.

Jela Tubei  58:56

Um, I think the need for closeness is because we are so separate, right? What's been interesting about COVID, as I said earlier, I'm a bit of an introvert, and I really kind of like it. I don't know if I'm gonna get in trouble for saying that. But it wasn't necessarily challenging to isolate from people. But the problem is even introverts need connection. And so there's the good thing is that it's forced me, and other people who are similar to me, to go out of their way to make those connections. The bad thing is for people who don't feel comfortable or didn't really have established relationships before that, so you're seeing a lot of people who are anxious, who don't understand how to navigate. I think we lost...but I think it's also a generational thing. So it's interesting Terry joined social media, because most people I know are trying to not be on social media during this time [Laughter]. But that has become a normal way of communicating. And as much as you want to do, like I mentioned, like balancing and peace, like you want to do as much as you can. I personally miss seeing people and faces. And being able to watch people's expressions is something that's very important for me personally, and also in my work. The need for community is actually stronger than it's ever been. Because because we aren't meant to be alone in life, we aren't meant to be isolated, we're human beings that need that connection to be able to thrive. And whether that's just one person, or whether it's like your whole family. It's I don't know. This is a weird time for everyone.

Ezi  1:00:46

It is! Weird is a good word for it. Nice and simple. It's a weird time.

Jela Tubei  1:00:54

And I think, you know, to add to what Terry said, it was like, it was in the stillness of what we were, we were all forced to be still, for us to focus on the important thing. So whether that was black lives matter whether it's the relationships that you have in your life that you really value, it also helped to sort of let the things that aren't as important fall away. And so you build, I found that my community is stronger now, because of relationships that I was trying to nurture that weren't necessarily beneficial for me, or the other person, like reciprocal, but I was able to sort of naturally just let that fall apart and keep things that are priority and necessary for my life there.

Ezi  1:01:42

So Elvin, what are some communities that are most on your mind now?

Elvin Velasco  1:01:47

Most of my mind, obviously, children, children, educators, the Filipino community back home, because of the typhoons that are happening there. Obviously, most importantly, our Indigenous communities here, I live, like near Alexander Park. So seeing all our houseless youth and even our houseless like, community members, like, they're all in my heart. And like, yeah, those are like, I hold them really closely. And it's like, I always go back to like, how can we show up for our communities? And like, how do we hold the like, our government officials accountable for these actions? Because like, people power...community power is people power. But also, we need to look into our government officials and like, how do we hold them accountable for the things that they perpetuate to us, because everyone deserves basic income, everyone deserves a warm place to sleep in. Everyone deserves clean drinking water, everyone deserves food. And why do we have to put a price on that for a life? And I think that's been on my mind, especially with the impacts of what's happened in the dissent in the Philippines. And why I got really, like, similarly to Black Lives Matter movement, I couldn't just like sit and not do anything for my people, even if I'm an ocean away. Same thing with like, my early childhood educators, I have the privilege of not being able to work while I have, like ECEs who've caught COVID. I had a friend who caught COVID last week. So part of me is like Stephen Lecce, Doug Ford, what are you doing? What are you really doing? And what are the inequities that we see in these communities? And how do I play the system and like, ensure that they are being served. Part of me as part of my essence is serving the people and like, as what Jela just said, it's, yeah, what serves you and who serves you? And like, how do I...like who matters? Like who really matters now? Like, who is your priority? And I always ask that now, in my relationships with people in my conversations, like, who do you care for, like, and it really shows like, where their perspectives are? And like, going to what Terry said, like, what are your values, like, who aligns with their values? And who's in the same like, who's in the same fight in our rights, in the communities we care for during this weird, weird, like rough time?

Ezi  1:04:45

I think....thank you so much for bringing up the issue of homelessness. And just if people don't know, it's an alternative term to homelessness, because it recognizes that a house is not necessarily the same thing as a home. So certainly, you know, people who are houseless right now have built community for themselves and as they always have, right. But those communities also be under threat in this weird and already tumultuous time right? Through like the movement of encampments and things like that. And another question for government, you know, rather than removal, how do you offer care? Right, rather than simply removing people from missing cat like public, public land that otherwise, really, if you're all at home, it shouldn't be used anyway. You know, so how do we how do we include people as opposed to pushing them further out? So certainly, thank you for bringing up that community as well. Yeah, so Jennifer, how about for you who's top of mind for you right now.

Jennifer Lau  1:05:51

Right now, today. I mean, we're running, we're running a virtual cooking event next week. And all the proceeds to the event are going to be supporting Uplift kitchen. So it's a new organization, volunteer base, and it's to help black, indigenous and racialized communities get access to meal boxes and stuff like that, especially during the pandemic. So we know that those communities are getting hard, are getting hit hard, as well as so the other community we the other organization, we often support and Sistering. The shelters are, you know, in a tough place right now, we know that there's this, they're calling it like the shadow pandemic, where, you know, the increase in domestic violence we're seeing happening here, because people are being like, trapped in their homes, essentially. Being home is not always safe for everyone. So yeah, those are definitely two that are top of mind right now.

Ezi  1:06:49

Shout out to Uplift Kitchen! Right?

Jennifer Lau  1:06:51

I love Uplift kitchen. They're so cute. Like, they're fairly new, and they're just, oh, they're so sweet.

Ezi  1:06:57

For those who don't know, just generally, Jen has really great taste in food ey? [Laughter]

Jennifer Lau  1:07:06

Oh, I eat like....I was just sending a client this really weird snack that I've like, really, like I just go through like phases where I'm like, I love something and I'll eat like every single day. It could be super strange. And I haven't told anyone about that and then I shared it with her. She's like, what is that? So it's I'll tell you have scrambled eggs on top of rice cakes. But the rice cakes have peanut butter and jelly. So then I put a scrambled egg on top of that with siracha and it's like, it sounds disgusting [laughter]. It's like it's like that whole sweet savory thing like, Yeah, I like you get from the Russia they get the sweet from the Yeah, the jam. And it's, it's definitely something I would serve to guess but it's been my go to snack.

Ezi  1:07:53

You have to do what you have to do in these times to make yourself happy.You know? [Laughter]

Jennifer Lau  1:08:03

For sure! [Laughter]

Ezi  1:08:05

So maybe as we close out, what are some final thoughts that you want to share? Just about maybe anything on your mind anything on the topic? And I'll start with Elvin this time.

Elvin Velasco  1:08:16

Yes. [Laughter] A thought that is on my mind is....So being a storyteller and a visual artist, I just like finished a book called Sketching Humanity. And I hold close my community members and a quote that like that I created is "relinquish your struggles and let your community hold you with care and compassion" is something on my mind. Like, reach out, reach out to...when you're feeling like you're struggling and you're in the dark, like, yeah, take the time for solitude, but also reach out and also hold your community close. Because I think this entire pandemic really reshaped how we care how we show love and compassion towards ourselves and for each other. And part of that is taking the time to give love and care to yourself and hold your, hold your, hold your feelings and thoughts with gratitude and to honor them and to forgive yourself, but also to hold your community in that same energy because I rest assure you like even this conversation, even not knowing any of you prior like I felt very held and I felt very loved and cared for. And I want to impart folks listening to this to emulate that same energy and ripple that effect to the people you you care about because there is someone out there that really just wants to feel embraced and held right now just for a mere minute. And I think that we have the time and energy to do that, when you do have the capacity to do that, so please like send that send that, send that light and pay it forward. Because trust me, it's gonna go, it's gonna go such a long way. Yeah, that's my, that's my insights.

Ezi  1:10:16

It goes both ways. It's really nourishing to hold other people close and to be held as well. So thank you for that. And I want you Terry?

Terry Gardiner  1:10:22

You know, I can't help but say it, because I've been conditioned in higher education for so many years, you know: it's about the learning. We have whether, whether I signed up for this, or not whether any of us signed up for this or not, we are in this experience. So what does it offer to us in learning? What is it showing us? What does it teach us, not just about ourselves, but about the people around us about the systems about the world about the choices that we make? And how can we make the best learning out of this lesson? Because that's ultimately what I hope that this can be for all of us. I know, for me, it's certainly inviting me to pause and look, and Jela's already told us Yeah, like, what's important, what's not important? What do we need to fall away, and maybe what might we need to pick up a bit more? But it's an opportunity, it's a pause, and in many ways, it can be a gift. And so in the middle of all of this, I'm inviting that we all pause to look at, you know, what are the strengths, what are the abilities that are already within us? Because we all are bringing them. And then what are the pieces that we might want to look and connect in community around that can add to the gifts that we already have. And again, there's a beautiful opportunity for life,

Ezi  1:11:43

Thank you, and how about you Jela?

Jela Tubei  1:11:49

Um, I think, in this year, one of the things that has really stuck with me is that no matter how alone, you feel like you are important. There is something that you are important to at least, at least one person at the very least, right. And that it's okay to take your time and go through the feelings of what you're experiencing, and whatever it is good or bad. Take your time with it, it's it's going to get better. It may not be what you expect it to be. But it's definitely going to be a better place. And I think as dramatic and drastic as this year has been, there's a purpose behind it. That's kind of where I want to...and start and that's the last one. Just start whatever you think you should be doing. Just start doing it. Even if it's messy, even if it's not the perfect package, you need to just start and I think that's where because we all came together because we are leaders in our communities. And I don't think that when we I can speak for myself and say that when we started the Real Toronto, it wasn't it we didn't have structure. We didn't have like a set plan. We just had hopes and dreams. And what we did is we started so that's the first thing that and the first gift you can give to yourself is just start.

Ezi  1:13:17

Yeah, for sure. Thank you for that. And how about you, Jen, what's on your mind that you want to share?

Jennifer Lau  1:13:25

Um, I just think that, you know, it's funny, like we hear this thing about and I just finished reading, like Glendon Doyle's Untamed and her her whole thing is like, you can do hard things. And I made a joke about like, Can we not do hard things like we're just tired of doing hard things. But all jokes aside, like, you know, as much as things seem super challenging right now, I think it's important to sometimes just step out of that. Challenge yourself to step out of that. And know that, like, I'm a firm believer that everything happens for a reason, and we're not faced with things that we can handle. You know, we humans are quite incredible. And our spirit is stronger than we might give it credit. And I mean, like that's what keeps me going. It's like this is just a phase. This is something we're gonna hopefully look back on and laugh about and be like, you know wow I really thought like that was that was gonna be the end of me. But yeah, you know, have confidence in your strength. I mean, we're all in this together and whatever you need to do to find those simple joys like the peanut butter and siracha egg creation. [Laughter].

Ezi  1:14:44

I love laughter It's always a joy to end an episode on that very note. Get yourself a belly full of joy, and let it out. Share it with yourself. Give it to others. In these times take joy from what you can. And as always, thank you for listening and take good good care. Bye for now.