Stories from South Africa

Sabrina
Hello, and welcome to The West Meeting Room. Before we get into the episode, I wanted to take a moment and acknowledge the passing of Mogamat Benjamin. I interviewed Mr. Benjamin in June of 2019, and he died in November of 2019. I only had a brief interaction with Mr. Benjamin through the museum tour and our brief interview afterwards, but his teachings and outlook on life will stick with me. In revisiting this tape I am reminded of the importance of storytelling and holding space for the stories of others while they're still here to tell them. This episode I revisit interviews and conversations I have conducted during a conference that I attended in South Africa. Today you'll hear the interviews that I had with two people where we talk about activism, youth engagement, mental health, apartheid, and more. My first interview is with Mogamat Benjamin, an ex resident of District Six and a past employee of the District Six Museum. The museum's website and other resources about District Six, as well as information about the publications that have featured Mr. Benjamin, are linked below in the show notes. Mr. Benjamin had a lot to say about activist work, youth involvement and fighting for freedoms, and thinking about where do we go from here. Or more accurately to when this was recorded, we were thinking about where we were going to go after the summer of 2019. [intro music plays]

Mogamat
My name is Mogamat Benjamin, I was born in District Six.

Sabrina
And what does that mean to be born in District Six?

Mogamat
That means a lot to me because the Six was where way my great grandfather was born, and where my grandfather was born, an even where my father's born. And I was also born there. social bonding. And to have been born in District Six was a place of beauty until people were dispossessed and put out.

Sabrina 
And why were they dispossessed and put out?

Mogamat
They were basically dispossessed and put out because of their color. And then they use all the excuses by saying the place is condemned and whatever. And then they were moved out to the cape flats. And these Six people were artisans. They were people of all different statures, people that lived together. And those years it was people of the Six, they weren’t sexist, they weren’t racist. And they were tolerant of one another's religion. And we shared a lot of, not only we shared the memories, we also shared of eating together and playing together. And that is what I missed the most.

Sabrina
So you've lived pre-apartheid, apartheid during and then after, and you were talking about forgiveness and forgetting in a world where some would say that we're moving more into divisiveness instead of into unity, especially politically. What did you learn from your experience? And how would you say people should move forward to be more unified and how they relate to each other instead of more divided?

Mogamat 
You know, people should basically move forward. But first of all to integrate with one another. Because before apartheid, everybody ever lived together no matter what color, you were still my brother. And during apartheid, it was very sad because people were divided. we had to use stolen moments here and there. And with a new South Africa, I would call the word integration. Because at the moment, I'm still living in a place which is called Bonteheuwel and Langa is opposite me. My cousin and my brothers are still living in a place called Heideveld, and Gugulethu is opposite. And of course, the same thing goes with Athlone and Hanover Park where Indian people were moved to our islands, and we were moved to Hanover Park, people were moved to Hanover Park. But the people have to integrate, and we must now really get up to measure to make sure that we live in the same township. We'll probably start with our government. They'll put us in basically places of slums. It was, it was created slums, because they used to call the Six a slum. It wasn't, they just could have just refurbished. But the way we live, it is even worse, because once it's dark, you got to be inside. So many crimes. So we people don't look after one another. That's why District Six was very special, because everybody knew everybody and everybody’s children was everybody's child. And if we can just manifest that in the in the capelet, or wherever we are, it can become better. Because we were basically, we were put in almost like into prisons, which was very sad.

Sabrina
And I know earlier you were saying that you've been waiting about 25 years for reparations. What is the state of reparations currently for those who are affected? Restitution, currently

Mogamat
Well the states, they do, there is restitution going on, but very slow. Because what is happening, the people are now using the standard as a political line at the moment. The political party is fighting like the engine. We've got, in the Western Cape, you've got a DA officiating, which are very anti-color people. They don't want the poor people here. You will see they are building a lot of homes here, flats which are 1 million, 2 million. And who can afford that was moved out of the Six. There is restitution but very little. I'm waiting for 25 years, 23 to 25 years now. And for restitution, the only build not even 200 homes. And yet the people are still and it's a complete political move. And people are still, we are still divided. And what is so sad, we said that the elderly come first home and some elderly have come home, but it wasn't long. And the youth they don't understand the fight of apartheid. They don't understand. They haven't got the even the feeling of the Six because they weren't born then and that is so sad. You can't blame them. But we think they should start educating people about the Six from school, grassroot level into school, high school and then into tertiary, and things will definitely change.

Sabrina
So moving forward to more of a unified new South Africa instead of moving backwards - what would you say the youth’s role in protesting and politics and things like that are to see a progressive future?

Mogamat
The youth, I feel that the youth should do what we used to do in the 70s. We did not set buildings alight. We have protest by making fire, building tires, and ditch stairways. Because it's hopeless that you are going to set the place alight which you're going to need tomorrow. Like for instance, a few weeks ago now they set the fire station alight. How can you set the fire station? The minute there is a fire you're going to need a vehicle? How can you set a hospital alight? How can you set a school alight? When you're going to need it today. Do what we used to do. We used to protest. We took cover and stop the traffic. And we used to protest. And then that is how we got the things right. But it's hopeless setting places alight that you’re going to need tomorrow.

Sabrina
And do you think that's advice applies to kind of youth all over the world, not just youth in South Africa?

Mogamat
Definitely around the world. And we've got a protest and of course, the youth are the future. And the youth were the people who actually basically divided rule in South Africa. They've divided, we as the youth, we protested. And the youth must have the right to protest. I'm an elderly today, but I know what it is. So it's important that the elderly must make sure that they pray for the youth if they are out there. But we must protest because we are the future and our children are the future of tomorrow. Because at the end of the day, if the youth is not going to do something, that's going to be bad. That's why I feel so ashamed that a lot of our youth in our country, if it came to voting now, they didn't vote. How can they say that they didn't vote, but they want to do uprising? You must make sure, you got to take part in it. It’s hopeless setting something alight and you're not interested in it, when you can do it properly.

Sabrina
And my final question - you were talking about people not being interested in having the black community move into the city and like building flats that are millions that people can't afford. Do you think that there is a possibility of falling back into an apartheid state or apartheid-like state when these forces are so powerful and working towards keeping segregation and those kinds of systems at play?

Mogamat
Well, I think whatever you said, it is true. Because, I mean to your question, it is true, that we are sleeping. And we are getting into a slumber. And if we're not going to wipe out our eyes, we will be packed into apartheid again. Because at the end of the day, people are giving our children the fancy clothing to wear, and invite them to all these bars and all these fancy places. And then the children forget where they come from. If we are going to be reminded where we come from and where we want to go to, we are not going to basically follow some of the people with the ideology. I'm not going to say people, or specific people, because I hate offending people. But we as the youth must remember, we want to go forward remember. We’re also going to have children and if we're not going to do it right - because remember what they say - teach the children and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they have inside so it cannot be a lonely place. My name is Mogamat Benjamin. I live in Bonteheuwel. I am at the museum, the District Six Museum. I'm a storyteller here. Should you want me in demand, you can contact them. And of course, the books that I'm in at the moment is the The Food and Memory Book, which is the Huis Kombuis Food & Memory Book. And of course I’m in the Carnival book. and I'm also writing my own book, which I know is going to frown the world. But I am not scared because I have nothing to be guilty of. And the book is going to be called from Moffie to Mecca. Thank you very much. 

Sabrina
Thank you so much. 

My second interview is with Tamatha Paul, a New Zealand activist and politician. We talk about mental health using grassroots activist movements, as well as self care and trying times.

Tamatha
[Gives greetings and introduction in Maori]. My name is Tamatha, I am here at the SLGS summit, I guess I'm here representing my university, Victoria University of Wellington, from New Zealand, to see what other people in the world are doing around mental health for their students and within university context.

Sabrina
And what have you seen other people around the world have been doing with their institutions in a post-secondary context around mental health?

Tamatha
So I guess that it's definitely contextual, depending on what region of the world you're from. So from what I've observed from students here, in Africa broadly, not just South Africa, there's been a lot of really like grassroots movements around like “Fees Must Fall” that has been really inspiring considering the kind of state and institutional violence they come up against. And doing, you know, those kinds of campaigns. There's a lot of grassroots activism here. In terms of mental health, it seems that that conversation is still opening up here. And that it looks differently to a lot of the more developed world I guess I haven't seen a lot from the other universities, but it seems to be a lot of awareness raising campaigns, which is cool, I suppose. Yeah.

Sabrina
And did you find out about these campaigns at the Student Leader Global Summit, or have you found out about these campaigns kind of on your own and those are the things that pushed you to come here to the summit?

Tamatha
I found out about them here. And the reason I came to this conference was really just like a shoulder tap from the university to go and find out what people are doing. But I would say without being like cocky about it, that being here has made me really appreciate the work that we've been able to do for our students and really appreciate the closeness of our country and how close we are to our political leaders, how accountable and transparent they are, and how easy it is for us to make change on a national and local level.

Sabrina
So what university are you affiliated with and talking about, you know, how easy it is to make these changes in your, in your country?  What differences do you think there are that makes things so easy from your context, but so difficult in this context in South Africa?

Tamatha
So I'm from Victoria University of Wellington, which is in the capital city of New Zealand in Wellington. And I think there's kind of two sides to it in terms of like actual logistics - being able to reach your government, we're a very small country. You know, there's 5 million of us. And we, you know, study right down the road from our country's parliament. And, you know, being able to just access them so easily and hold them to account is very easy. So it's easy to make them listen in a way. And I guess the other part to it is that I think there's a lot of, I mean, there's still more work to do. But I think there was a lot of accountability as to the history of our country. And people are quite on the same level in terms of like what has happened in terms of colonization, and what kind of an effect that has had in terms of like disenfranchising Indigenous people. And what that means for us moving forward, because obviously, we're not a bicultural country anymore. There's heaps of different cultures. And I think that's what I've seen with other universities and places, is that a lot of their governments haven't formally or otherwise recognized, you know, the past and therefore can't move forward. Because with mental health, a lot of it has to do with identity and having a sense of belonging. And so how can you have that if you can't acknowledge your past?

Sabrina
So it sounds like you do a lot of activism and I think a question that I receive a lot as a student activist is like, you know, where do I start? How do I start? What does activism mean? You know what I mean? So maybe, let's start by, you know, defining that term to you. What does activism mean to you?

Tamatha
Activism means to me, being able to bring forward what the people want, and what the people need. Being able to elevate that to the level that decision makers can't ignore it, and being able to create change based on that profiling of issues. But I think it always has to start with the people.

Sabrina
And do you think there's a difference to you between activism and advocacy? And if yes, what is that difference?

Tamatha
I think advocacy is super important. But a lot of it is quite individualized then trying to advocate for somebody. But I think a level of advocacy still comes through in activism. But activism is really putting it on a macro scale, because you're taking an issue that needs to be advocated for. In some cases you're advocating for it by getting a level of change, whether it's a social, like cultural change that needs to be shifted. Like, for example, like Me Too movement addresses rape culture. So like, there's like those cultural social changes. Or sometimes it's more practical in terms of like changing policy or like institutional systemic change and being able to implement that. So I guess it depends on what issue you're working with and in terms of the scale that you need. But I think advocacy and activism are, you know, one and the same. But advocacy can also play a role in your individual relationships with other people.

Sabrina
And how would you encourage you fellow, like fellow student population, fellow #theyouth, you know, around the world, who want to make a change, but they see people like you, and they think, you know, how does she, where does she get her information? How do you get started? There's so much out there, you know, where do I even start? I know nothing about mental health, I know nothing about race relations, or First Nations relations, or, you know, my country's politics. How do I get involved into advocating for something?

Tamatha
I think the most important step is being able to unite people in a common, in their common interest or shared interest and what they want to see change. Because like, what I've been hearing a lot of at this conference is that some people say like, Oh, we had a lecture, and I complained, and nothing happened, my institution is not listening. Of course, they're not gonna listen to you if you’re five people. If you ever want change, and you're a young person, because young people we know haven't had the chance to, you know, buy a property or begin their career or accumulate things that make people take them seriously. So being a young person, you really need to have people on your side, because that's the power that you can harness. And because there's so many young people, that if you can harness that, then you can push anything that you want really. And so I think it starts with people and you have to unite people and you can't talk down to them. You have to come to a level where there's a shared experience or shared understanding. But moreover, you have to make people see that it's possible to make change, because it's all good and well saying like, to say someone, or you shouldn't be happy with this , you need to change this. You need to, first of all, you need to appeal to their common experiences, and then show them that, Hey, you, me and you, we think the same thing. I've talked to 100 other people that think the same thing. There are so many of us that want to see change, but unfortunately because we don't have the means to be able to do that easily, we need to harness that power. And so showing them how it's possible. Because if people don't think it's possible, then they stay in their state of complacency. So you have to make it possible. And then from there, change what you want to change, you know.

Sabrina
And can you just share your story? How did you get into activism in New Zealand? What steps or like how did you fall into it? What communities did you access and what are you doing now?

Tamatha
So my, I guess experience with activism came from a useless, useless system of representation and where I was from. So like, our local representatives were just not doing anything. And we never saw anything of them. I wanted to understand how that happened. So I moved down to the Capitol to kind of understand it more. And so through studying political science, I began to understand the system. But through involvement in community grassroots organizing, and organizations that were built to challenge these institutional norms, I began to see how that could happen. So like, for example, one of the areas that I'm interested in is criminal justice reform. And so as soon as I moved down to Wellington, I got involved in protests. I, you know, I went to, I remember my first protest was, there was a trans woman that had been moved to a male prison. And we were outside the Ministry of correction saying like, this is fundamentally wrong. And so the thing with people and wanting to make change is that they always want to be the leader, and they always want to be the one spearheading it. But the thing is that you have to be able to be a part of any part of the movement, because everyone at the end of the day is going to have to be doing those really menial tasks. So going to protests and knocking on doors and having conversations with people, change doesn't happen with getting a conversation with somebody and having a backroom conversation and changing things. It never happens that way. You have to be able to mobilize people to want to change things. So that was the way that I got into it was starting at that really ground level as like a basic volunteer who would go to protests or help with, you know, driving people to certain things. You have to start at that level, and then learn how to work with people, how to, you know, to compel their emotions and their shared experiences to want to protest and organize. And so I guess, just through being involved in different issues and organizations was how I got to there 

Sabrina
What do you do to decompress to take time for yourself, because activism can be very giving work, can be very preoccupying work. And you need to know a lot about a lot of topics or certain topics. And you can be seen as the person, like the go to person, and that's a lot of labor. So what do you do to protect yourself?

Tamatha
I make sure that my support networks are strong. So I’ve been, I put time into my friendships and my, not just my romantic relationships, because you need to have a strong network around you. Like having a mentor is really helpful. And having people with that shared interest that you can kind of like decompress, let it go, and then move on. And I think it's important to an extent to, as much as you can, to separate your activism from your personal life, although sometimes it's hard because some of our identities have been politicized. But I think having very strong support networks, and having friends that aren't actually involved in the issues that you're into is important as well, because you need to have an area to be able to step away from that. So I think that's an important part. My name is Tamatha Paul, I'm the President of the students at Victoria University of Wellington. And I'm here to figure out how we can strengthen our, you know, support for students that are experiencing poor mental health in New Zealand, because we're actually, we have the worst suicide rates in the developed world. So trying to figure out how that works. But also it doesn't stop at suicide. We need to remember that there's a whole bunch of people that are suffering from depression and anxiety and general low moods and a heightened level of stress in this age of information, in this age of, you know, institutions trying to commercialize their degrees, so they squeeze everything in as much as they can. So trying to figure out, what does that look like? What does change look like? And how does our, what can I learn from other people that are doing around the world?

Sabrina 
Thank you so much to my guests, Mr. Benjamin, and Tamatha Paul, who had agreed to sit down with me for those interviews. A special thank you today, Braeden and the rest of the Hart House Student Podcast team for your help in producing the show. Our intro outro music was produced by Dan Driscoll. And as always, a huge thank you to you, our amazing listeners. We'd love to hear from you. You can follow us on Instagram @HartHouseStories and on our Twitter @HHpodcasting. We also archive all of our episodes on Soundcloud at soundcloud.com/harthousestories. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll be back next week with The West Meeting Room.