In Conversation: EP3 The Ways We Move

Ezi  00:11 

Welcome to Episode Three of In Conversation, From sign language to back squats.From rivers to laughter rippling across vocal cords. Movement is integral to life. In this episode, we explore movement and its connection to wellness. Which bodies are welcome in movement spaces? Who gets to be called an athlete? What's the connection between movement and race? Professor Janelle Joseph, Jahmee Murray Taylor, Shanel Dear,  and Melissa Doldron, take us on a journey of exploring the many ways in which we move. Check it out. So today, I have the pleasure of being joined by four amazing individuals. And we get to talk about the ways in which we move and what movement means how, how and who gets to be an athlete, and you know how to take care of ourselves through movement. So I'm going to start off with what is movement and what is the importance of movement? And I think I'll start with Melissa. 

Melissa Doldron  01:26 

I guess we'll start with what is movement, to me, it's literally just moving your body, it doesn't have to be anything structured. It's just being able to be in tune with how your body moves, what your body is supposed to be able to do. And then being able to do that. Whether it's for mental, physical, or emotional wellness, we should all like all of those things are important. And that's usually what I promote, in my practice, is that utilizing movement in either of those factors, is what we should all be doing. It shouldn't necessarily be anything...doesn't have to be anything that's like super strict, if you don't want it to be, but that we should all include a little bit of it in our day. 

Ezi  02:21 

And, you know, in terms of making sure that movement is inclusive, Shanel, you talk a lot about that in your practice. So what is movement to you? And what is the importance of movement in your practice, particularly towards being more inclusive and creating more inclusive spaces?  

Shanel Dear  02:37 

Yeah. For me, the importance movement, kind of going off as Melissa said, like, it's not just important for like our physical health, but also our mental health as well. And inclusivity is so important, because so many folks, so many folks tend to feel left out of movement, and it's kind of like, we can all move in different ways. And I think for people who are new to movement, or who have previously felt ashamed to join these kind of spaces, I think it's great to know that there are different variations of movement, and they're all right, and there's no one way for us to move. And for myself, I tend to teach with like a body liberation, body positive lead lens and try to offer those different variations throughout my classes to cater to different abilities and body types. 

Ezi  03:30 

Nice Janelle you're in a space where you know movement is studied as like an academic pursuit. So what is movement look like in that space? What is movement look like to you? What is its importance? 

Prof. Janelle Joseph  03:42 

You know, kinesiology is a very multidisciplinary field. And so for some of my colleagues, they are measuring movement, measuring breath, measuring heart, heartbeats and eye movements. So down to the cellular level, they're interested in how we can improve performance. The kinds of sociocultural work that I do with looking at movement from a broad, intercultural global kind of lens. So thinking about movement to music, thinking about movement for expression, as well as competition. So I try to avoid using the words sports or fitness. And really movement is something that speaks to me so I'm so happy to be here today, because I recognize that even in a sport or a fitness environment, the kinds of movements and self expression that people might want to gravitate towards can be fulfilling for them.  

Ezi  04:38 

That's that's very interesting about movement down to the cellular level for sure. And you know, Jahmeek you're a former, and I would argue still, a high performance athlete. And so in that space, right, how do you take up movement and and encourage other people to feel that they can move in many ways as well. 

Jahmeek Murray Taylor  04:58 

Living well, and movement goes hand in hand, as Ahanel and Melissa, were just saying. You need the physical, the mental and the emotional part of it. And I put in the spiritual because people believe in what they want to believe or not want to believe. And, to me, movement is everything. It starts with nature. If you just go into the forest, and you see and you're dying of thirst, and you see a water that's moving, or water that's stagnant. Whatever they tell? You most likely drink the water that's moving, because it's still living. We look at a shark, or some species of shark, if they stopped swimming, they die of lack of oxygen. And we can look at something mechanical, like a car, a car is built, it sits in the garage, most likely, it's not going to start up, it's going to rust. But if you run that car every day, and you take care of that car every day, it's going to run for quite some time. And what does movement look like to the human beings? The body craves movement, and I was just doing a little bit of study and it shows that after people retire, post retirement, within the first six years, five to 16% have a decline in their mobility and daily life. Five to 6%. Develop illness conditions and 69% have mental health [issues]. So it's in us as humans as well, we have to move the body craves it.  

Ezi  06:21 

I like that you connect it to different areas of life too. Both the sentience and the non sentient. That movement is essential for functioning, right? And functioning, taken as a global concept. Um, you know, I think we'll touch back on you in terms of being an athlete and who gets to be an athlete, right? There's this notion that an athlete can only be someone who's paid to perform at a peak, you know, level, but you take All Aay Athlete to everybody. So what was the impetus behind that programming? And how do you make everyone feel that they belong in that space? 

Jahmeek Murray Taylor  06:59 

And that's what it is a lot of people...I, we had a talk at the fire station a couple of days ago, who gets to be called an athlete? We have one person saying...well, let's take Google. Google says that an athlete is someone who plays two or more sports. And then I had one of my crew members saying that, in order to be considered an athlete or athletic, you have to be the top player in that sport.And we have another crew saying: So you, you're only athletic if you're the best. But then to me, I had a crew member who says, I am not an athlete. And he's like, but it's weird, because people tell me that my job is an athletic job. So at the end of the day, to me who decides who and who not an athlete is, is that person. If you want to be considered athlete, I am an athlete, or I may not be an athlete. But, [with] All Day Athlete, the program that we're running, I want to take people out of their comfort zone. Our motto is get comfortable, being uncomfortable. And when I have someone of a plus size, body type, who doesn't really jump in, and sprint, you know, they have nightmares doing that, you got to bring it down to the level, we're gonna walk, we're gonna jog, and then we're gonna sprint. And our community is amazing, because you're not doing it by yourself. You have everyone around you clapping you on, cheering you on, making mistakes with you, and getting better with you all along the way. So the community and the mental headspace of everyone lifts the team up as well. 

Ezi  08:29 

Right. So that whole notion that, you know, there's space for everyone, and that you can build your way through really owning the fact that every body everyone has the capacity to be an athlete as they wish to engage that idea. 

Jahmeek Murray Taylor  08:43 

Exactly. You have that growth mindset to try it. Just try it. 

Ezi  08:48 

Mm hmm. Um, so you know, that's pretty interesting how you say, like, you know, you particularly mentioned plus sized bodies, and that idea that seems to be prevalent that, you know, plus sized bodies cannot be athletic bodies. And so maybe I'll take that to you Shanel sees how that's something that you activate around. So in terms of athleticism, and plus sized bodies, how do you take those two concepts together in your work? 

Shanel Dear  09:16 

I mean, I think there was a discussion going around the other day, because it was like, what is an athletic body type, right? And like, sometimes I know, they have those charts, right? And it shows you all the different body parts and the athletic one is always the one that's like, less than 5% body fat [laughter]. And that's not true for every athlete. I mean, you wouldn't compare Serena Williams to Gabby Douglas, who's a gymnast, because they need two different body types...they have two different body types and are the top and their sports, right? And the same thing I think for a lot of like plus sized folks, kind of like what Jahmeek mentioned, is that they feel discouraged before they even hit the field just because of how they move in their body. And I think that athleticism can meet someone wherever they're at as long as they have that like discipline; that determination to get it done. The coming back every day, going a little farther, finding their edge and going past it. So I think we can do this in every body type. And it's not just that less than 5% fat kind of body. 

Ezi  10:13 

Right. Right, right. Um,how about you Janelle in terms of athleticism? How is it? How is it a concept that comes into your work into your space? 

Prof. Janelle Joseph  10:22 

Yeah, only recently have I started doing work on athletics, with a particular project with the Ontario University Athletics Organization. But I guess throughout my life, I have been adjacent, I've been sport adjacent [laughter], through my brother's professional and varsity baseball careers. And the thing that I see with this emphasis on athleticism, as others have said, it's usually about excellence, it usually is about peak performance, provincial/national level performance. But the research that I have done has also focused on recreational athletics and recognizing that every person can participate in in many different ways. And particularly my research around martial arts and Brazilian capoeira. That is a physical activity that is extremely athletic, it combines music into song and movements and spirituality and history, ancestry, there are so many different aspects to that kind of physical activity. So I think there's something about getting outside of a Western framework of who an athlete is what a sport is, and really embracing the many different ways that this is defined around the world to think about, you know, who is an athlete, and to me, an athlete is anyone who moves. 

Ezi  11:48 

I want to get back to some of the things that you've touched on, but I'll let Melissa go ahead. Melissa go ahead, take over. 

Melissa Doldron  11:55 

Oh, because I was gonna say, I absolutely agree with that of just saying an athlete, is anyone who moves. Even in my practice, as, as a massage therapist, I see all kinds of bodies all the time. And, and majority of the people that come in to see me are active in some frame or fashion, whether it's recreationally or at a professional level. And I think for me, I was always, I don't know, I guess I was just sort of lucky that I was in a family that really loved watching the Olympics, and was really into watching those types of even the random fringe sports. So I was exposed early to just seeing how different sports required different things. And so athletes to me always look different shapes and sizes, just as Shanel said, from Gabby Douglas to Serena Williams, to someone who's like a hammer thrower. And then even when you're like watching football, you know, a receiver is going to look very different from someone who's on like the D line, but they're both athletes, they're both professional athletes being paid a lot of money to participate in sport. So you can't say, you know, one, just because you...what does that look. And that's what we all, you know, usually go by, and that's because it's pushed by the media. I think that's where a lot of issues that we tend to deal with around wellness and health and fitness stems from is what the media drives to us, and what kind of imagery that that they, whomever, producers, etc, on those levels to promote what they put out. And then that just sort of gives us, sort of skewed, views on on what athletes should look like, and what wellness and health looks like. 

Ezi  13:55 

Right. And I mean, you know, moving off with that question as well. The idea that wellness/fitness/movement looks a particular way and has been commercialized to mean a particular set of things. You know, is is a is a troubling notion when most of us, in fact, globally don't look like though that one set of things that has been pushed, right that white, male, heteronormative, slim or built, kind of frame. So Melissa like you said, you see lots and lots and lots of body? So talk a little bit more about how that space has been commercialized or whitewashed in particular way. 

Melissa Doldron  14:36 

Yeah, I mean, I think it also depends on the area. So in, you know, just talking about things that I've been involved in, so with the idea of like, say yoga, for example. You know, you see that a lot: how Western culture has totally commercialized it; changed it, taken it as its own, and what do you normally see for the last, you know, whatever 20 plus years is, you know, thinner, able bodied, white women in these like complex, pretzel like, you know, poses. So always makes you think, ooh, if I can't hit those crazy handstands and arm balances, then I can't do yoga. And knowing that, and this sort of always this like, I don't know, positivity of like, good vibes only, don't bring us any, you know, hard questions about what we're doing is also really, really toxic. You know, I find in, in other sports I've been involved in, it hasn't been, I haven't noticed that type of sort of white washing as much. But growing up doing like, participating in a sport like boxing, it was always just, you know, people who would more come from, you know, lesser means like, you go to the gym for safety. So it was like a different idea. So when I moved from boxing to the yoga world [laughter], it was just like, what is this? It was like a total total 180 [laughter]. 

Ezi  16:16 

Which I guess also brings in that class conversation too, right? 

Melissa Doldron  16:19 

Yeah, totally, totally. 

Ezi  16:22 

Sure. For sure. Go ahead Janelle. 

Prof. Janelle Joseph  16:26 

And I would just like to add the, in addition to that class conversation, there's the question of the purpose of the movement, right? I think when some when we're thinking about sports, like the purpose is to win, it's competition. And so you're building that body and building those skills, regardless of the shape, so that you can be effective at that sport, right? And boxing, I think, or a boxing gym, is usually around safety, fitness, the, you know, there, there's different discourses. But particularly the dominant form of yoga that's, um, advertised the Lulu lemon kind of yoga. That is...the purpose of that movement, I think, is to develop that thin body, right? I don't think it is...the dominant idea is not about spirituality. It's certainly not about connecting with Indian culture and the roots of the the movement practice. There, there's really commercial drives that are at the basis have that kind of culture. And and that's not to say, obviously, that that's the only way to do that physical activity. So I think that that comes into this idea of like movement for wellness. Like, what does well mean to you? You need to answer that question first, before you can think about what kind of movement you're going to get into. 

Ezi  17:41 

Right, and that's so funny that you raise that because that's the central question for the show[laughter]. So what does it mean? Like, what does it mean to you?  

Prof. Janelle Joseph  17:51 

[Laughter] For me, I'll I'll build off what Jahmeek said earlier around the the Indigenous wellness wheel model, that emphasizes the spiritual, physical, mental, emotional health. I think, for me that living well is, in fact, the physical is sprinkled in all of those, we don't need to think of them as compartmentalized because for me that I need the physical as the basis for all of the rest. And when I think of when I whenever I go to see my own massage therapist, I can only be in pain for two reasons. One is because I've been working out too much. And the other is because I've been working out too little [laughter]. And I know that my body is speaking to me all the time. It's giving me messages telling me to be well. And so you know, I much prefer when that soreness is from Oh, yeah, I did squats yesterday. Not oh my goodness, why have I been standing or sitting at my desk too long. So, you know, the healthy movement will definitely impact my emotions, my cognitive state. And so I'm always trying to keep those in balance and ask myself, you know, what is it that I need in order to, to be well and to move more or move in a healthy way? 

Ezi  19:09 

And how about you Jahmeek 

19:10 

Ezi I just want to add on, to Janelle's part. Especially right now in COVID, and not being able to go out, go to the gym, go to your your classes, and whatnot. But luckily for All Day Athlete were outside, you know. It's now the cold, it's kind of cold, but just getting up early, and being out with people and just moving. The mental health [piece] and how that impacts the rest of their day and their well being goes a long way and just keeping people locked up....That's a whole different game. But yeah [laughter]. 

Ezi  19:48 

I mean, the community pieces are really really big in All Day Fit right? Community is so heavily emphasized, so for you Jahmeel what does living well and being well look like? What does it mean? How would you define it? 

Jahmeek Murray Taylor  20:08 

To different people, it means [many things]. To me just to break it down, it could be having a roof over your head, eating food that you know what it does to your body and how it affects you. And having a job and a little bit disposable income to do to do as you please. But then, you know, you have people in less fortunate positions, and you have people that are very well off in life. But the basics to me, no matter what, if you can have that little bit, I think you can live well. We can have ambitions to to be wealthier, and maybe then turn that wealth to help more people better their lives. And you know, what, what you want to do with it, you can to help out people. 

Ezi  20:51 

At that basic level, that of, you know, being able to provide for yourself being able to eat the foods that are nourishing to you. And, you know, I think in what you're saying as well being in community with others, right, if you can, if you can do that. Yeah. How about you Shanel? 

Shanel Dear  21:07 

Oh, like all these good answers [laughter]. Um, I think for me, like to live and I guess, to move well, is to like, live and move with purpose. I think there's a lot of sometimes intimidation that comes behind movement, like just hearing Jahmeek say, wake up early and go work out. I'm like, Hell, no, I'm not moving that way.I'm not moving today, then like I woke up late and I need a nap. So. Um, so finding movement that brings you so much joy, and not just like, Oh my God, this hurts so much. I never want to do this again. But like, things that just make you feel so good afterwards. And that could be whether running or anything like that, and moving within your ability. So any, like I keep mentioning any ability can move, and it's not just able bodied folk who are able to move. So whatever that means to you. And yeah trying to find time to recognize, like, what fills your cup? You know? What brings you so much joy, it fills your fountain to light it up and like what drains it? I mean, you're gonna have to find balance, because we can't get rid of everything that drains us, you know, like people who don't want to work [laughter]. But you have to work to eat, but then you're gonna eat food that brings you joy. So like, there's balance there for me. So yeah.  

Ezi  21:08 

Nice. Melissa how about you? 

22:04 

Just as Shanel said. Everyone gives the answer that I was that I was going to talk about [laughter]. Because she even just said joy. But I'll touch on it more from a preventative standpoint, just in in things that I see with work. So to live and be well is also to think about movement and health as a preventative measure against other sort of long term effects of if you don't, especially we see this in racialized communities with rise in things like diabetes and heart disease. You know, you always want to have that in the back of your head: that you want to move for joy, for your mental, physical and emotional health. But really, that that physical health part comes into actual health issues, not just aesthetics or, or feeling physically strong, or being able to like whatever squat and bench a certain amount. It should really be for, for those days that when you're, you know, down the line thinking about when you're 60 70 80, will you still be able to go for nice walks around the block? Will you be able to bend over and tie your shoelaces and not worry about you know, if you trip, will you break a hip? Or will you just be able to get back up again? So yeah, for me living and being well now is that I'm creating the foundation so that I am well down the road. 

Jahmeek Murray Taylor  23:50 

And Melissa and I can I can speak to that firsthand. Like being a firefighter. A lot of our calls are just people falling down and can't get back up. It happens often. Like it's it's crazy how often it happens. It's just like, thinking about just pushing yourself up off the floor. There was a lady that was on the floor for five days, you know? And the human body is incredible like that. When I found her I thought we'd have to start life saving measures someone's been on the floor for five days without moving, food or water. Like I rolled her over, she looked at me said "hey". You know, so being able to push yourself up off the floor, exactly. It's what the last 10 years of your life looks like. That's what I'm living my life for. Do I want the last 10 years, 10 years of my life to be in a hospital or to be with my grandchildren throwing them up in the air? So that's what I'm training for. You know, we're all athletes in the game of life.  

Ezi  24:44 

The Game of Life. The game of life. And and as you're all mentioning movement is fundamental to that. And and it doesn't have to be within a corporate gym setting. Or you know, towards being towards being thin.  

Melissa Doldron  25:00 

I've recently, sorry, you know, tried, I'm recently trying to promote is, you know, as I said, at the top of the episode of just getting into nature, and so it's that idea of that, when you have the time and the means to lift heavy weights, and get in the gym and do something structured, you should absolutely do it. But there's also great benefit of just finding a park, finding a local little forested area, and just taking a walk and being able to soak in even what the trees and whatnot will give back to you if you just take mindful moments while you're walking, so you get sort of twofold benefits, you know, of some cardiovascular work on a walk, and then some mental health benefits of just, you know, taking some time to just pause, breathe. Breathe, and all the smells, listen to all the different sounds that you know nature can give back to you. 

Ezi  26:03 

I think I think it's definitely important to be talking about how we can all engage space, you know, towards living healthier lives and engaging movement. But I think it's also important to nuance the fact that we we all engage face differently based on our social realities and locations, right? Dr. Joseph, Janelle, you do a lot of work around race, right? And so how does race factor into discussions of movement? 

Prof. Janelle Joseph  26:30 

When you work, especially now, during COVID? You know, there's, we know that there's a disproportionate effect of COVID on racialized communities. Many of our communities, our frontline workers, or are living in substandard housing, or sometimes in crowded housing scenarios are with multiple multi generation families. And so the the effects of COVID are significant on our communities. And the access to the green space is can also be limited. And so sometimes, personally, I live right in a urban downtown Toronto area. And so when you were describing the sounds Melissa, I was thinking like cars honking, ambulance fasting, there's construction happening outside of my building, right now I need to be careful not to fall into a pothole [laughter]. So even with all of those, all of that said, You know, I do recognize that it is important for me to get out into as safe an environment as I can when I can. But I recognize that not everyone has that opportunity or privilege. And so we do need to think about how we are differentially distributing the resources of our society. And that comes down to you know, structural issues, the only ways that you can get safe neighborhoods is through voting and through being politically engaged. And then of course, not everyone even has the extra resources or capacity to think about, you know, how can I change my environment at a structural level? So these are really complicated questions, because they speak to race, they speak to class, they also speak to gender and ability. Another thing that is top of mind for me is Parenthood, motherhood, you know? I have young children and there's the issue with COVID, of homeschooling or virtual schooling or you know, do you have the resources to make sure that you are that you are? Or do you have the resources to be able to care for your children and their education needs as well as your own? And then how does physical activity figure into that? And so for me, personally, I've developed a really explicit routine with my children. Whenever we're, we try and get out every day, for some play time and making sure that we are...I make sure that I'm being clear with them that this is intentional. I don't want it to just seem like this accidental thing. I'm like, no, we must go outside. No matter how we're feeling, no matter what the weather is, this is a priority, because I really want to instill in them the importance of that, even in an urban environment, even when the sidewalks are not, you know, up to our preferred standard. Even if we can't get to a green space, at least, you know, we will do what we can. And so I think it's important to emphasize that message, while not putting the onus only on the individual families to do better or you know, finger wagging at people for not for not taking advantage. There really needs to be a balance between those structural changes that can create safe communities and people taking responsibility for their own wellness and their families. 

Melissa Doldron  29:44 

And that's it, it doesn't have to be you know, and I and I say that meaning you don't have to be driving up out of the city to the Bruce trail, but you know, just exactly finding anything that as you said, I love that, green space because I do think when I say nature, it always makes it seem broad and expansive. But yeah, any kind of space that is that just can, you can find, you know, a little patch of grass to go wander and maybe, you know, play. Like I love that that you that you're intentional with it I try to tell that to a lot of my clients who have have kind of put their, put any movement practice on the backburner because of family obligations, work obligations, etc. It's always like, I don't have time, I don't know what to do. I've got this, this and this. And so I always try to give them ideas for I just call them like little movement snacks. I go, you if you've got five minutes, 10 minutes, you know, my biggest thing lately is, like most of us, most people, not me, but most of the people are working from home, I said, just have dance breaks in your living room. Take five minutes, 10 minutes, put on some music and just do like interpretational dance. Nobody cares what you look like. But move your spine, move your limbs all over the place so that you're just getting something into your body and then see how even your mood picks up. You know, and then if you have more time, go for the neighborhood walk. Maybe start introducing some bodyweight exercises in your living room or seeing if there's budget, you know, to do virtual classes, or whathave you or purchase some equipment, you know? Like you can always start small and easy. You just have to be intentional as Janelle said and and, and know what your purpose is, and why you're doing it. 

Ezi  31:38 

I think one of my favorite Instagrams to follow is yours Shanel. You know, that purposeful use of your message and space to really look at, you know, the ways in which structures are set up to exclude, but also what individuals can do to transform that engagement with structures. So let's talk a little bit about you know, body positivity, body neutrality, kind of what those terms are, and then how you take that up in your space. 

Shanel Dear  32:04 

Yeah. I always love talking about these terms. So obviously, like, body positivity... If you're looking at your arm, body positivity is I love my arm. And then like obviously, self hatred is I hate my arm because it's fat or whatever. And then body neutrality is this is an arm, it moves, and it does things. So you're just neutral to the fact that it is just a body part. And you don't have to, like, send a sense of like love or sense of hatred towards it, you're just neutral in that. And I think I'm, I'm there very much myself. And so creating these types of spaces. So I think a lot of us, especially like racialized folks, bigger bodied folks, we like to say we're creating space, like safe spaces for them to come and move and to practice. But this isn't always the case. So I like to say that we're creating brave spaces. So we're creating spaces where people can authentically show up as themselves. And they can move in a way that makes their body feel good. And also I think as like instructors and leaders, it's up to us to bring that accessibility to our classes. So for myself, if I'm in another class, and I see that someone is struggling, and I don't like I don't feel like the instructor is really catering to where they're at in the thing I would, I would just pull up myself and give a different variation. And like they see me doing it, they do it, you know, so leading by example, to bring access in these different places. Just because you're somewhere doesn't mean you can't meet someone where they're at. So,yeah,  

Ezi  33:32 

Yeah, um, you know, and Janelle, you also talked about play before, but I see a lot of play happening in All Day Athlete space in All Day Fit space. So Jahmeek, tell us about play and how you bring that into, into the space to make that space feel more welcoming to others. 

Jahmeek Murray Taylor  33:50 

So when you come to All Day Athlete, three things: you know you're going to get a good mobility. Know, you're going to work hard... we want you to work hard, and you're going to have some fun. That's the mentality work hard, have fun, and stay healthy. And just taking people out of their comfort zone and doing Olympic style training and professional level football drills. And just bringing it down and teaching somewhat of a general population how to do these movements. And try fail, try fail. I'm getting it, I'm getting it. 18 weeks later look at me go! You know to see them, invite their sister out, you know some of the posts on Instagram, and like you know, I've never thought I was an athlete. I wouldn't say I was an athlete. Just trying and seeing what the body can do. It goes a long way. And and now that that fun part of it. We're all kids and we all haven't played in a long time. So the littlest little bit of fun. A game of tag. I game a tic tac toe using hula hoops and and some shirts goes a long way. You see how it brings out the kid in us. You know, we're allowed to be kids, we're allowed to have fun. So that's what I'm doing. I'm bringing out just that that little bit of kid we have in us. 

Ezi  35:08 

Right? An Melissa I see you engaging a lot of, you know, creativity around movement spaces and creating community. So for you, how do you engage, you know, more accessible spaces? How do you create safe spaces? 

Melissa Doldron  35:23 

Yeah, when, when I, in the before times [laughter]. Whenever...when I was when I was teaching, I would always do pop ups. So I would take, I would figure out during the year when I would make some dedicated time to then say, I'll show up for four weeks in this space, and we'll teach a specific class. And then when COVID happened, of course, everyone went virtual. And I hosted a couple months of zoom classes as well during during the initial lockdown. So for me, it was...when I started teaching, it came from more of a, I guess, yoga for athletes kind of background. And so that was always just the target is that it was like a recovery, active recovery tool for for people who were like serious about their athletics. And I started to sort of veer off into wanting to make it a little more inclusive to everyone, but still have, you know, I work with a lot of runners and cyclists. So it was still niche, but I didn't need it to be so strict of like, we're gonna do like these hard, heavy flows and all this. And I still wanted it to be fun. And it was, it was something very hard for me in the beginning when I was figuring out, I guess, my style of teaching and classes, because I didn't really see a lot of people in the yoga space, like having fun. I felt like it was very much you show up, you do the flows. You know, everyone was like clapping at the end, and you'd still be...but no one was really like cracking jokes and making light of it. And I realized I sort of suppressed that part of my personality in the beginning of when I was teaching, and I found just before COVID, but especially moving to zoom, because I couldn't be, I couldn't see everyone up close. And, and, and not everyone has their cameras on, I really tried to implement just more of my actual personality. And even in in some of the movements that I would put sequences, some of the sequences I would put into class, I would do them purposely. So that you like it's not something, it's something you're almost meant to, like fail at so that we could all laugh at each other and be like, we don't have to take it so seriously. Like, I want you to try to like wiggle your toes and stand on one foot and like, you know, become off balance on purpose to know that like, it's not so serious, and to have more that element of play. So yeah, I definitely think it's an important element to movement. And that, again, it just brings it back to what I what I said earlier of like it doesn't even in a structured type of class, you can still find some unstructured play. 

Ezi  38:19 

Hmm. Huh. And that aspect of bringing yourself to the space, you know, Janelle you're touching a little bit on, you know, movement not being this Western thing that is just limited to athletics, or exercise, or whatever, right? And thinking about movement and culture. So maybe to talk a little bit more about that. 

Prof. Janelle Joseph  38:40 

Sure. I think the when I say this Western thing, what I mean is, you know, our dominant sports cultures mainly come to us from Europe, or from a really linear kind of understanding. There's goalposts at either end. [Laughter] you can think of basketball, soccer, hockey, you know, these ideas where there's, you know, lines that you're supposed to cross or not cross or, you know? there's a lot of structure and rigidity to dominant sporting styles, and the non Western ways of knowing whether it's, you know, ancient Asian arts or Indigenous arts or African arts, often revolve around a more circular kind of community organization, and that, that this idea of flow and exchange and that there doesn't necessarily have to be a winner or loser and that we're in this in community together. And so I think there are ways to do those Western sports in non Western ways, and certainly the training and the play based physical activity that Jahmeek was describing. I think that's so important because so much of our lives, especially if you think about children and in our education system, in our physical education system. It's designed to  create productive capitalist citizens who will go out into the world and will follow the rules and will meet the deadlines. And you know, there's the overarching structure, I don't mean to get too meta on us [laughter]. But, you know, the structures that we're embedded in, they all feed into each other. And so it shouldn't be a surprise that our sporting structures are designed to constrain us in many ways. And things that allow us to be free and expressive, such as arts and dance are really kind of denigrated in our culture, right? I think it's, it's much more venerated to say that you are an elite athlete, as opposed to an elite dancer. And so you know, they're certainly even some kinds of dance where like, you shouldn't talk about that kind of dancing in public. You know, there's some, there's a lot of body shaming and movement shaming that comes with some movements. And Surprise, surprise, those are movements, mostly that come from women and from the global south. And....working class kind of communities. So I think we should really think about, you know, what are the lessons of movement and expression? And, and health and wellness that can come from those structures that are outside that dominant Western domain? And also, how can we bring those outside things inside? Right? I would love to transform the K to 12 physical education curriculum, so that everyone could come to understand movement practices outside of that dominant European canon. 

Ezi  41:37 

Right. Right. So movement is liberation movement is freedom, especially now, right, when there's so many limits and boundaries put on the ways in which we can exist in our societies, too, right? 

Prof. Janelle Joseph  41:48 

Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, my research on capoeira has really shown that it's through participating in movement practices, such as those where there are racialized leaders, where there are fat leaders, where there are people who are sending us messages, different messages about the body and about movement. That is where we can learn anti oppressive practices. So when you say like that movement as liberation, yes, it's like the physicality. But there's also for me, like intellectual, historical, cultural knowledge that comes from learning these movement practices as well. And that in and of itself can be liberating, because that is allowing us to understand different people, we are exploring differences, we're exploring ourselves through those practices. 

Ezi  42:36 

And, you know, from myself, from the research around Black feminism, you know, thinking about the fact that difference doesn't have to be something that you need to dominate, or, you know, or fight against, or whatever, but actually being able to relate in difference; relate across difference. Difference as being something that's generative and productive and, and just good. Right, so yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, so I mean, we've been talking a lot about moving in the sense of the physical, but you know, movement in terms of even signing. And movement in terms of breathing, right? So multiple ways of movement is taken up. And so what are some ways that movement, maybe a little bit, non traditionally--big, big, fat air quotes here--Um, gets taken up in your space, Melissa, as a massage therapist, you know? Person's lying on the table, so how do you think about movement in that space [laughter]? 

Melissa Doldron  43:29 

Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, during, during my treatment, I'm moving limbs around. I have to have clients move from being on their stomach to being on their back to maybe laying on their side, depending on what we're working on. Some people come to me just for a full body stretch on a table. So I get worked out, while they get a an awesome stretch, but I'm moving their limbs in space and, you know, coming into different kind of, you know, contortions, for their for for their ease, and recovery. So, yeah, I see that and then even just after treatment, a lot of times, if someone's coming in and complaining of a specific area that's stiff, tight, sore, you know,? Once treatments over, I want to see them moving, I want to see how that time on our table has, hopefully positively affected, has given them a positive outcome to to why they came in to see me in the first place.  

Ezi  44:32 

Hmm. So even just a shift in terms of feeling and shift in terms of being right. And Shanel, you deal a lot with, you know, that kind of shift in terms of mentality, shift in terms of feeling energy. So tell me about how that plays in your space. 

Shanel Dear  44:47 

I was just thinking that. I'm like in yoga, it's all about the shifting and kind of relating to what Jahmeek said like for us like the spiritual, the spirituality part of it comes like into a big play of when you're teaching.  Especially when you combine the asana the movement with the pranayama, the shifting energy, and the prana, the breathing. It's super important during class that we do all of them, because I don't think you can have a shift by just doing the physical, like you have to breathe, you have to take a second to sit with yourself. Moments that you don't get outside of usually that one hour to do that. So I see that a lot in yoga. I've seen like different emotions run through people, some people are angry in certain positions, some people are crying, some people are super happy. And it's interesting to see the way that these movements move through our bodies emotionally, physically and mentally. 

Jahmeek Murray Taylor  45:40 

Yeah, we just add to that, to that real quick just saw what Shanel was saying there, the first six weeks of all the athletes, we would, I would work them out, bring them up, and then Okay, bye, get out of here. And then Natey [Adjei] came on, he's still playing in the CFL, and he's like Jahmeek we didn't cool them down, let them lay down, breathe, relax for three minutes for them. At the end of the [workout] and I was like, No, no, I haven't been doing it. So then, after that, we started incorporating that, just the three minutes to Shavasana, or whatever it is. And the reaction that we got from that was night and day. It like completed completed the workout 

Prof. Janelle Joseph  46:21 

Fantastic that builds on what I wanted to say, which is that recently, my mind has been circulating on this idea of circulation, of cardio respiratory function and the breathing that is essential to to all of our practices to everyone who lives, nevermind who moves and the discourse in this, these anti racism, reckoning times around, I can't breathe. And, you know, I don't think there's anyone who, who has been oblivious to the fact that, you know, it's that that act of cutting off, in particular Black men and women's breath that has come to the fore in 2020. And it's not unrelated to COVID, which is a respiratory disease that is also trying to or for some people is limiting the breaths that they can take. And so, you know, I'm really just trying to piece together the importance of that the movement and the breath, and that the ways that that breath is connected to the fight the fighting for your life, the fight against racial injustice, the demand that like I must have space to breathe. And so as Jahmeek was saying, you know, I can't just leave that class, I need space to breathe at the end, I need space on the massage table to breathe. And so it's finding ways to create the breath that I think is, you know, my my mission in life. And in an academic sense, you know, I want to engage that in my research, I want to engage that with my students, students at the at the University of Toronto, and I think every university around the world right now are trying to breathe. You know? We're just trying to breathe. And so it's, I feel like it's my job to help create that space. 

Melissa Doldron  48:19 

I wanted to add to that, as you're saying. It also reminded me that although I am moving bodies on the table, I also give people time to just be sometimes their days with everything going on all the tension, all the stress, I will feel it. And sometimes I do just have them, we start and end the practice with just some diaphragmatic breath work. I want to see are their ribs even moving when they breathe in and out and to see how much that tension is. And sometimes they don't realize how much they're just holding in because of everything that's that's been sort of percolating in our world in the last, you know, couple of couple of months with all the racial tension, plus pandemic stuff, so yeah, even just allowing space for that sometimes I'm not really doing much, but just letting them be, you know, on the table. 

Ezi  49:23 

So stillness and breath two important concepts that you're all raising. Janelle, I think particularly in these times, it's important for us to consider the fact that breath is something that can be taken for granted and yet for some of us, our potential to breathe freely is is drastically interrupted by white supremacy and other social forces. As we move on, let's leave the folks with some final thoughts, Shanel, anything that you would like to share as we close out our show for today.  

Shanel Dear  49:57 

Um, I think one thing that kind of didn't come up in our discussion, but like just talking about the diet culture industry and the way that it affects movement and the way that we internalize it. And it has a huge effect, you know, and there's, it creates so many different constraints on the way that we move, because you're moving to burn calories. We all have these smartwatches that tell us how many calories we burn. And I kind of, I kind of guess it goes off what you said, Janelle creates that competition you're talking about right now we're like, you're trying to beat your best every single time. And it relates to the way we eat. We no longer, a lot of us no longer have like good relationships with food at all, whether good or bad food for you. So I think it's important for us to work on that internalized diet culture that we have, and separate it from the way that we move, because we can find so much joy in movement that doesn't relate to having to burn calories, to having to change our bodies, you can just move in the body that you exist in, and that is okay. And that is for you to decide. So, that is my closing comment. 

Ezi  51:04 

All right. I mean, I mean, let's let's not close too quick, let's give you some more space to talk about that [laughter]. Right? You did bring up the notion of before, you know,of  body positivity. And personally, I've wrestled a lot with body positivity as a as a theory, you know. Because of the because of the the amount of work it puts on the people who are already in the bodies that are already doing the work to survive in these systems. And so really, that piece around, you know, talking about changing societal attitudes and society taking some onus about creating the spaces, again, you know, we talked about safe versus brave spaces, right? Creating those spaces in which certain people don't have to be more brave all the time, right, or more self loving all the time. So definitely that thing about, you know, every body should be able to engage movement. Every body should be able to, you know, do all the things that bring them wellness without necessarily counting or measuring or weighing, or, you know, all those things. So, if you have any more to say on that, I'm welcome. I'll open the floor to you. 

Shanel Dear  52:06 

I like that you said that cuz I do think like, body positivity brings a lot of pressure, like that word brings a lot of pressure. As well as there's other things going on. Like it's it's multi layered, it's complex. And like, we don't talk about weight loss, obviously, because it's like, you know, like it treads in this really weird place. Even like when we were talking about before, like everyone was saying, like, for the future, you you want to move now for the future, you. And a lot of times living in a fat body, like I'm told, I don't have a future, and there is no future me. So that it like kind of creates a bad relationship, sometimes with that type of movement. And obviously, that is internalized. But I think that affects a lot of people who live in like, non able bodies who live in bigger bodies who live in different type of bodies. And I think it's important to work through that, whether with movement, whether with breath, whether in therapy, whatever that looks like for you. But yeah. 

Ezi  53:08 

I definitely relate to that, you know, in terms of, you know, encountering people who are supposed to be helping you, but who make certain judgments about your ability or make certain judgments about your well being.Not based on x rays, or any of those, you know, interesting diagnostic tools that may be helpful, but based purely on your size, right? And so, you know, the things that you're restricted to being able to do without you actually not being able to do them, if that makes any sense, you know? Other people's perceptions restricting your abilities, your space for movement. So, absolutely, thank you for bringing that in. Closing bell, but thank you [laughter].  Haw about you Jahmeek, what are your final notes for people to take home? 

Jahmeek Murray Taylor  53:52 

What I want people to take home is get off that social media, you know. You see someone advertise their workout program. And what we don't like at All Day Fit is when some trainers are out there like buy my program; this program will make you look like me. And we got to get away from what training...what you're going to look like at the end. Yeah, at the end, it's going to better the mental and you're gonna start to feel better, and you're going to start to look better. But what we focus on at All Day Fit is not what you look like but how do you feel? You know? How do you feel? That's what it's all about. That's what, we want you to do well, to be well and live a pain free life. 

Ezi  54:35 

And to look better...You'd look fine already, but yeah [Laughter]. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Sothat focusing on the feeling, focusing on the community, all those aspects. Absolutely. And how about you Melissa? 

Melissa Doldron  54:51 

I think the one thing I would I would say is for people to actually learn about their bodies. So it is staggering how few people know really anything about their anatomy and what their body can even do. So regardless of your ability level and mobility level, figure out within your body, how it how it moves, how to your shoulders, hips, legs. And then once you figure that out, make sure you're moving those things every day. As I said, it doesn't have to be anything structured in the beginning, if you're just starting out, but just be more intuitive to what your body can actually do. And make sure you're just moving every day, if you have the ability to go outside, try to get outside every day, and just breathe some fresh air or get on a balcony. You know, if you don't have, you know, space to go outside, or if there's, you know, too much condo construction, just find ways to just move. 

Ezi  56:07 

And actually just going off thar point, you talk about access a lot, there's a lot of students who will be listening to this, and so really thinking about the resources that you have. I know KPE has, you know,  physical therapists, right that students can engage, which is actually quite a luxury, once you're beyond that space, for a lot of people. So really thinking about, you know, learning your body, but also learning about the resources that might be around you, right? 

Melissa Doldron  56:32 

Absolutely, absolutely. I don't know, because of COVID right now. But when I was in school, we had a student clinic. So I think most... so massage therapy schools, I don't know if like Cairo colleges do that. But you can find affordable options. For even getting some body work done. If you find that you are in a little pain or discomfort or that you're not moving as freely as you think you should. Yeah, I would just say always check out as many resources as you can, or just sometimes even calling clinics or reaching out to certain therapists, I've definitely done my share of pro bono, or like lowered prices for people who don't have insurance, that sort of thing to try to, you know, be be accessible. So I do think sometimes just asking, it can always be... that in and of itself can be a barrier to sort of, you know, say to someone, I can't afford it. But you'd be surprised if you do more times, more often than not, someone will say let's find a way to work it out. 

Ezi  57:37 

Perfect. Thank you. And Janelle last, but not least. 

Prof. Janelle Joseph  57:41 

Thanks for the opportunity to reflect on this question. It's a big one. And I've been picking up pieces of what everyone has said that for me, it's about you know, knowing your body and also knowing your your lifestyle and your community. Right. For me, so much of the physical activity that I do, as I've said, has been with my children or with my friends, you know, going for a walk and even just like talking to someone on my headpiece, you know, that can then become a social walk. And for me, I know that that's what I need. I need to have an appointment with someone for some accountability. And it's going to be really social. And so you know, figuring out how you can work it into your everyday. Another thing is that I'm always cold and but I know that if I do just two burpees [laughter] my body temperature goes right up. So just thinking about, you know, what is it that is within the realm of possibility for me for my body and what I need, but also for my lifestyle, my home environment, all of those things, and, and finding a way to just do the little things and acknowledging the joy and the pleasure that can be associated with it because I think so much of our, our disciplining culture is around you must do this and putting it in a schedule and just you know, when it's something that you really enjoy, it will become more natural. So I would encourage people to do that. 

Ezi  59:11 

Move in the ways that you can in ways that feel good to you in ways that bring you joy. We don't all move in the same way and that's okay. Breathing is movement. Stretching is movement. Speaking with our hands is movement. To learn more about our guests, check out the show notes. And as always, thank you for listening and take good good care.