In Conversation: EP. 2 Stolen

Ezi  00:02

These are tough times. And sometimes it's hard to imagine and feel wellness and the reality of a socially unwell world. On today's episode we address exactly that. Joined by Erica violet Lee, Mary Carmen Lara, Villa nueva and Tony long, we explore what it means to live and be well as racialized people in a world that so often injures us. We'll talk about colonialism, the power of mothering, and how to be your fullest self, all while resisting contesting and destroying white supremacy. As always, these episodes are recorded on indigenous land. And so as you listen to this episode, consider the ways in which you can create revolutions, big and small, that challenge colonial violence as it persists today. Without further ado, I present to you Episode Two: Stolen. Thank you so much for being with me today on episode two of in conversation, which we've called stolen. So today we're going to talk about what it means to live in a socially unwell world, on stolen Land, or as descendant of stolen peoples, or just as people whose future has been altered by the massive gravity of colonialism. So today, I have with me, Marycarmen, Tony, and Erica, and they're going to take us through a number of brilliant, I'm sure, points on today's topic. And question one, to kind of ground us all, is what does it mean to each of you to live and to be well? And I think I'll take Tony first. So Tony, what does that mean for you personally?

Tony Luong  01:49

I think part of wellness for me means doing some of the work in I think identity work. And that's also healing work. And doing that is to like help to internalize, and to really believe that we also deserve wellness. And in some ways, I think of wellness as something that is kind of like a journey that is, that happens gradually, in a way that's very nonlinear, kind of like how change and healing happens. There's an artist, I really love, Alok who talks a lot about how part of wellness and healing is what the work that we that we do the self work that we do, community work, that we do to heal from heartbreak, and not just heartbreak from other people--while yes, that is also a thing--but also just heartbreak from the systems that we live in. So systems where there's interlocking systems of oppression, and that does to our wellness, and sometimes part of the community. I think shifting from that individual wellness to like community wellness is important because I think part of what does it mean to have community care, and that sometimes it's about creating spaces where we can recognize and bear witness to pain, and to hurt, and to suffering. And not necessarily to fix that, but to be able to affirm it. And I think sometimes, from my experience Anyways, what people just need to hear is that what happened to them isn't necessarily their fault. It's because of these larger structures, that we feel that heartbreak, and I think just hearing that it's not their fault is sometimes still enough. I think a lot about how wellness, has to do with like healing, and change, and believing and internalize that we do deserve to feel well. So that's kind of my understanding of wellness that I'm working with right now.

Ezi  04:02

I hear that. So definitely a lot of taking time taking care, bringing in, you know, centering yourself; and just recognizing that self exists in a whole nexus of other things, and sometimes that nexus is doing more than we're doing to affect necessarily our particular situation. So awesome. How about you, Erica? What is what does it mean to live and be well for you?

Erica Violet Lee  04:27

I really love what Tony said about part of the process being just learning that we deserve wellness as Black, Indigenous people, and People of Colour. The work that we do to heal from heartbreak and not just individual romantic heartbreak, but the heartbreak of systems that oppress us. I love that so much. And so for me a huge part of my healing journey and a part that has been done in tandem with my community members and my friends, has been learning to identify as someone who is disabled. So learning to claim that identity, without shame and learning to be gentle with myself because of it. And also just like, even if you aren't someone who identifies as disabled, recognizing that a lot of time we can all, especially in a pandemic in the middle of this worldwide crisis, and the worldwide in justices that are occurring, like as we speak, with ourselves as Black people, Indigenous people, and People of Colour as oppressed people, in such a huge part of appealing just that recognition.

Ezi  05:57

Absolutely.And However, you may come in, what is it for you?

Marycarmen Lara Villanueva  06:01

I think I'm gonna kind of incorporate some of Tony's and Erica's ideas in my answer. And this is not intentional. But when I was preparing my answers, I actually thought about how, yeah, how wellness has been a journey for me as well, just like Tony said, and also the idea of deservingness  that Erica has mentioned. So yeah, to answer this question, and because I want to speak particularly from within my location as a mother, I want to share a story with you. So after giving birth to both of my children, I experienced what is known as postpartum depression. So these were exacerbated by what now I understand as an inability to breastfeed my children naturally. And this is due to neoliberal practices and technologies of extermination that impacted our communities in Latin America, back in the 80s, and 70s, when white mothers didn't want to breastfeed, sorry, wanted to breastfeed, more and more, right, so um. So specifically, during the during this time, I know that there were external factors that contributed to my declining mental health and my declining general well being, including, of course, microaggressions, that I experienced during my pregnancy, inadequate prenatal and postnatal care, in racism, and not only that, but also there is a history of what I like to call maternal injury, which is carried through generations, and that the western medical system is unwareof, so years after, after having my kids and experiencing these I understood that we can be medically affected by acts of oppression, and that the supports available to us are often oblivious to these factors. So during that time, when I became a mother, I was I was younger, of course, and I was seduced by an image of mother and motherhood, that wasn't mine. A practice of motherhood that wasn't collective, but individual and that had a very negative impact on me and my well being at the time. So reflecting on that journey helps me redefine or has helped me redefine what wellness means to me. And now wellness. Now, years later, I understand, wellness, at least for me right now, as a holistic, intergenerational and collective imperative, being well is inherently connected to my past, to the stories that I carry with me and to an ever present connection with other peoples, with other communities. Being Well is having to put up a fight with what I've been told that being well is. And growing up in what's known as Mexico one is was defined by white fantasies. Wellness then became something unattainable as someone who's not white. So, within the context of settler colonial state, what is known as Canada today, we know that wellness is also often a whitewash space. So um, wellness centers, able-bodiedness. It centers whiteness , it centers thiness. The visuals of wellness are white. The optics of wellness tend to be white as well. And if we are not careful, it will make us believe, these optics will make us believe, that we are not deserving of that wellness. And so I want to leave it here for this for this piece. And, yeah.

Ezi  09:54

Yes, so many things. (Laughter) Where does one even begin. Yes, the visuals of wellness are absolutely white, right? And I like how you mentioned that fact that, you know, those visuals make us believe that we don't belong within the nexus of what it means to be well, or that we don't deserve wellness. So, absolutely right, and something that you all touched on which I think we're realizing more and more in this pandemic space, is that there's a need for us to be well together. Right? All these practices, necessary at times, of isolation, you know, really are bringing out the the very basic factor that human, human beings need each other. Right? And so even as we need each other, we need each other to be well, so that we can be well together. So, I think all of you have touched on some brilliant points around collectivity, around kindness, you know, and about the moral imperative, I think, to remove whiteness, from the center of wellness, so that we can all find a space in that center. So as we talk about, you know, removing whiteness and coloniality, and these big terms that I'm sure that you know, all of you are familiar with, let's also open up that space to bring some familiarity to those terms for others. You know, so when we talk about colonialism, and when we talk about whiteness, how would you define that? So what is colonialism? You know, how are they multiple? What are the rather what are the multiple ways in which it shows up? Right? How does colonialism work with whiteness? And so maybe I'll start with you, Marycarmen, since you touched on those terms, a little bit in what you shared.

Marycarmen Lara Villanueva  11:40

Sure. Well, I mean, colonialism. What is colonialism? Colonialism is Western colonial expansion, essentially, that started with Christianity, and that expanded primarily, or initially, throughout the Americas, or what is known as the Americas, then Asia, and then Africa. The purpose of colonialism was domination, occupation, and extraction of resources for for wealth. And for me, coming from what is known as Mexico and what is known as Latin America. Another concept concept that is important to understand and it has been very helpful for me is the concept of coloniality. And coloniality is an expression that was coined by a Peruvian sociologist, Anibal Quijano. Essentially coloniality refers to the structures of power, modernity and hegemony that have emerged as a result of colonialism. Coloniality is what remained from from colonialism at least that's how I understand it. So how do they, how do they show up in the spaces that we that we occupy, I mean, colonialism and coloniality they frown at us, I often feel that, you know, wherever I go, colonialism and coloniality, frowns on me, at me, sorry. And so they show up in, in every space that we occupy, they show up in state policies, in our institutions, in our schools, in our curriculum, which is Eurocenter, which is Christian-centered, they show up in our health care system, which favors, you know, allopathic Western medicine, and in our legal and judicial systems. One example, I was thinking of examples where colonialism or coloniality shows up particularly within the context of wellness and the conversation that we're trying to have. And I was thinking about how how colonialism shows in the health care system, in the Canadian healthcare system in particular, and it's racism. And we know that just a few weeks ago, and we know from, you know, forced sterialization, to blaming victims, to not believe in patients. You know, patients who are Black, Racialized and Indigenous, of course, being subjected to all kinds of degrading. Just a few weeks ago, we know that Joyce Echaquan, a 37 year old Indigenous woman was subjected to degrading comments as she was dying. And this is how colonialism operates and shows up in our, in our communities, in the institutions that that where we operate and and and Joyce, she was a mother too. So we also know that colonialism show up so aggressively in maternal health disparities, right and this example, from the historical exploitation of Black and Indigenous women through forced sterilization, rape, medical experimentation, and many other forms of torture, scientific racism, African enslavement, Indigenous genocide. These are forms of colonialism and oppression that directly impact maternal health. And we can see that today. This is colonialism and this is why Black and Indigenous and other racialized mothering is such a revolutionary and subversive act, because we are mothering and preserving the life of children who are not supposed to exist. They're not supposed to thrive. And and, you know, to me, that is revolutionary, that that type of mothering is revolutionary, because not only are we preserving their lives, but we are making sure that they are well and the establishment knows that; the establishment knows that mothering, the Black and Indigenous and Racialized mothering is revolutionary: is an act of revolution, an act of radical love and radical care. And that is why, because the state knows that, that is why the separation of families is ongoing. That is why there are 545 children south of the border whose parents are missing. And the state  is not doing enough to find, to reunite these families and we know that those are the tentacles of colonialism and racism: separation of families. I'm gonna I'm gonna leave it there.

Ezi  16:05

Yes, so definitely some beautiful words and beautiful distinctions, right? I think it's important how you highlight that there's colonialism in the singular, as, as you know, that  euro encounter and the multiple euro encounters, right? And then there's coloniality, or colonialisms, in the plural depending on the school of thought, right? Or the origin of the school of thought, that talks about how those there's multiple relations of power, right? And not simply power as something that's generative, because there are relations of power that happen in our world that are natural, right, that produce that produce things that are not necessarily domineering or harmful, but how colonial isms or coloniality is about relationships of power that are destructive, right? That are  destructive and use logics of domination to subjugate. Right? So how about you, Erica? How do you think colonial isms or colonialisms, or coloniality, excuse me, shows up in in the work that you talk about; in the worlds that you live in.

Erica Violet Lee  17:13

I think that you, Ezi and Marycarmen did such a good job of discussing sort of the basics of what colonialism and cordiality look like and what how they the roles that they play in our everyday lives. And a point that really stuck with me is that we are, so we're not only told that wellness is a white pursuit. But that wellness is literally impossible for anyone who isn't white. And so in my own community, in Indigenous community in what's called Canada, I see this with the way that native people are pathologized. Which means we're already viewed as being sick and living less than full lives, even if we're considered to be human at all. And we experienced this, as Marycarmen mentioned, when we try to seek to get the most basic health care as Black, and Indigenous, and racialized people; as poor people; as disabled people; as people living with mental illnesses or madness. And so then reclaiming that health and wellness and care for me, looks like reclaiming and relearning our ancestral ways of knowing. And something that I see this in very clearly is I live in the inner city in Saskatoon. And it's a predominantly Indigenous neighborhood here. It's a predominantly poor neighborhood, we're very low income. And something that folks have started doing is setting up gardens and planters because we can't actually plant anything in the ground because it's contaminated. And, and so by reclaiming even just the act of gardening or the act of growing plants, or medicine, we're reclaiming the Land and reclaiming our bodies and saying, like, there's actually ways for us to be well, and we are not naturally sick, we're not naturally more prone to early death than anyone else. It's quite simply white colonialism that has created situations where Indigenous and Black mothers are more likely to die in childbirth, or the children are more likely to be taken. And all of these all of these sort of add up to something that points, to me, directly at the unhealthiness of the system that we live in, rather than our own unhealthiness and our own inadequacy or dysfunction. So that's what I think of when I think of healthcare and coloniality, and disrupting that.

Ezi  19:57

I like that you raised the point about You know, children being taken, right? What an awful awful thing to happen at that point, right. And it's also interesting where that system will, will make claims: like the family is not able to care for them for let's say, for example, financial reasons. And then provide another family, a foster family, finances to care for that same child, as opposed to supporting that family from which, from that which that child came. And of course, there are all kinds of reasons  for which that separation happens. But when it happens disproportionately to one group, it begs very specific questions, right? So yes, we're not naturally unwell, we're not naturally prone to any, you know, certain illness more than more than another, in many cases. But you know, what, what does our system do to make that, so? To make it seem natural to make it seem normal? Yeah. And I think that that reframing is really important, right? Because the systems try to make it seem as if it's individual fault, individual plight, individual blame, so that they don't have to be held to account, or so that we don't hold them to account. Right. We're too busy blaming ourselves and thinking about what we didn't eat right. Or, you know, the fact that we didn't go to the physical every year or, or whatever. As opposed to how can systems make those things easier for us to actually do. Like you said, Erica, if you can't grow anything in the ground, you know, how, how is that community thing supported to (a) make that happen? And (b) do something else in the in the interim, right, while that is being repaired, or while that situation is being fixed? As opposed to leaving it all up to the communities. But of course, the communities are not going to just wait for the systems. And so, looking at the communities as themselves, as having agency, right, having agency and having creativity, and having the life enough to give ourselves a life. Right? So I think those are very important points. And I think in that, in that vein of not waiting, right, or not simply responding to the center--euro center, that is--how do we also live from our own centers? I think you touched on that a little bit, Erica too, in that, you know, we create solutions, right, we live irrespective of what's going on. But how do we live? You know, not in the reflex of whiteness, but from our own centers? So we'll start with you, Erica.

Erica Violet Lee  22:27

Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. That's actually the question that I'm working on right now (laughter). My, a huge project of life, not even an academic project, but the project of life. And, of course, immediately, the first thing that comes to me in that question is how do we, which is the basis of our conversation, how do we live well, is how do we live and the like requirement in order to live well is to live. And so I think immediately about yesterday's verdict, at the time of this podcast being [recorded] of Abdirahman Abdi being killed by a member of the Ottawa police force, and how the cop who was there and who brutalized Mr. Abdi was just released, let off completely free. And so when we think about how to live well, there's always that precondition: how do we live? And right now, I think of the Black Lives Matter movement and movements for Black life, as Rinaldo Walcott and Idil Abdillahi say, in their book BlackLife. And the reality is that we need to fight for Black life, we need to all be fighting for it in our own ways, in our own communities, fighting for people to just have the ability to live lives on their own terms, before we can even start to think about wellness and agency and creativity, which is such an exhausting pursuit. But ultimately, at the same time, even though I think i think of precarity in a way that, in particular, Black and Indigenous and Racialized people are always viewed as-- just as we're viewed as being sick or dysfunctional--we're also viewed as being inherently more precarious than white people, than able bodied people, than people who aren't poor; but, the reality is that were made precarious through system, that put our lives constantly at risk. Another point that I wanted to make was about sort of the striving to be to be seen as human. And I think that there's a beautiful book out by an author, an academic, named  Zakiyyah Jackson called Becoming Human: Matter and Meaning in an Antiblack World. And she writes about matter and meaning in an anti-Black world, and how we can sort of break down the the very Euro-Western, white distinction between humaneness and animality, and start to see ourselves as beings. And this is like Indigenous philosophy, right? It's the Indigenous philosophy of a lot of different Indigenous groups all over the world, is that we need to break down that barrier between the human and the animal in order to really start to see our place as beings on this earth and consider what health and well being is for the entire creation that is Earth.

Ezi  25:57

Absolutely. And, you know, I was speaking with some folks earlier, and you're talking about the fact that, you know, radical movements are actual movements of wellness as well, because they're insisting upon, just like you're saying, our life, right, that foundational piece. And so in that insistence, right, it's also vocalizing your being, as you're saying, right? You know, not just laying there and taking it, quote, unquote, right? What are your thoughts Marycarmen?

Marycarmen Lara Villanueva  26:44

Yeah, no, I mean, thank you, Erica, for for these words, they really resonate with me and what I've been thinking about wellness, and the way we know with everything that has unfolded, throughout the last few months, right? From COVID, and what COVID has shown about racial hierarchies, and who gets to live, and who doesn't, and also, the racial uprising, and the ongoing dehumanization, essentially, of Black, Black life, and Indigenous and Racialized folks. And thinking about wellness, and how racial capitalism, does the work of depleting us, right, and making us think that, that we, that everything is within us. And I think that's why many of us are in tension, in constant tension with wellness and with, you know, concepts of, for example, you know, self care, right? And how, you know, initially the idea of self care, as coined by  feminists who were, who wanted to kind of find ways to challenge the miseries of life under capitalism and whatnot. But then the concept got corrupted, right when he was taken by neoliberalism, and then there's this corporate version of self care that is depoliticized and that is white. And it doesn't speak to us, it doesn't work for us, on the other hand, it can be actually doing more damaging, right? So we need to, we need to politicize that. We need to embrace that and politicize it. And in terms of, you know, going back to your question, Ezi of living in the reflex of whiteness, and I think that's, that's the biggest challenge, right? And I think knowing and recognizing that, that wellness is colour coded, and interrupting that coding and doing everything that we can to interrupt that. And I think to do that, at least, for me right now, the way I see it in with the work I'm trying to do, I think articulating an ethics of care. It has been really important and I think we need to create, you know, alliances and solidarities throughout racialized communities and racialized groups to articulate together: What does an ethics of care look like? And act upon [it], especially from my, speaking from my own position as a as a an uninvited guest in this in this land, thinking about also my own complicities right, within a settler colonial state and then acting on that consciousness as we create that care of, that ethics of care sorry. And, and then in that process, also to think about sustaining life and putting life at the center. I think that right now must be a priority. And and then the last thing within that process is to establish political commitments and, and to and to honour those political commitments in everything we do.

Ezi  30:10

Tony, would you like to add anything to that?

Tony Luong  30:12

I just want to say thank you again, for sharing all of your viewpoints and words, it's making me think and reflect a lot. I really appreciate that. Marycarmen, like the point that you talked about this, kind of this idea that self care has been depoliticized and needs to be politicized really resonated for me, because I think a lot about how, yeah, like with neoliberalism, in a lot of ways self care, kind of, again, reflects those values of individuality, of invulnerability. And those are just things that don't work. And I think, just from all the conversations we've been having, when we're able to be in this place of vulnerability, where we can admit that we do need people. And at the same time, we're also afraid of rejection, I think those are such...that is such I think, for me, it's such a beautiful act of resistance against these systems of colonialism and capitalism. And so I think a lot about that. And one of the other things in, in thinking about through this question, as something that comes to mind for me, actually, is, when Erica, you mentioned that your supervisor was Dr. Eve Tuck, I was very excited [laughter], just because like one of her, many of her works, but there's a work that really will always speak to me. And there's a paper that she wrote about what it means to shift from a damage centered framework to a desired center framework, and working with communities. And that has always been such an important work that has guided my own work in terms of like learning and unlearning. And I really love this idea of just understanding that it's important not to just center around like the damage within a community, but also to honour and to celebrate the ways in which communities have demonstrated strength and resilience. And also too I love this piece about also like,  honouring the future that is still yet to come. I think that pieces is really I think, is really healing as imagining a different kind of possibility, a different kind of world where healing is possible, where there is justice, where we are able to smash the patriarchy, of course,[laugher] it'll just be. So, I think a lot about that. And that's something that I, I think a lot through my own work and my own practice with the communities that I'm a part of, and care deeply about, and that I also want to be in solidarity with. And I think something that always will, that I'm still working through is how healing...how healing works. It's like something that I'm still thinking through in terms of wellness, I think it's like, and these are like just things that are that haven't fully articulated yet, but I think a lot about what it means to heal within these structures, especially when there's a lot of unhealed wounds, and how sometimes I think for me, it's been important to notice when I do operate from a place of like, hurt, and loneliness, and unhealed wounds, and how that has been such an important part of doing that self care work. That resonates more for me, rather than just like, what has been told. Like, it's not just about doing yoga or the bubble baths [laughter], but actually like doing that deeper healing and identity work. And so I've been thinking a lot about that. And I would love to hear kind of like, what folks' thoughts are in terms of like the work of healing, because I think that's has something that still, I'm still trying to think through and unpack. Because I know it's a word that gets used a lot. And so, yeah, sorry, those are so many thoughts. But

Ezi  34:34

No, I mean, no need to be sorry. Definitely. Like I said, the show is not about answers, right? It's about exploration and, and inviting people and their points of view and their journeys, right? And yeah, definitely from a desire-center, you know, and I'm going to include some of these papers in the show notes because I don't want to assume that everybody who's listening knows all the things as we don't know all the things right? And so you only come learning something by learning it. So I'll include all these things in the show notes for sure. But yeah, you know, I think about healing, just as you're saying, like, I think about it, not as an arrival, but as a journey, right? Like, this idea that you can be like completely healed is also setting you up for a kind of failure too, right? And again, that like vicious cycle of like, self blame, right? Like, if you're not healed, if you're not perfect. If you're not okay, then you're not somehow worthy, or you're not like doing it right. Right? And the idea that the bubble bath will solve it is in line with that, like, are you doing it right? Have you put the right numbers into the formula and gotten one? So definitely, like, I think it is like that, being able to, you know, hold...I think healing is also holding yourself responsible, like, you know, holding yourself responsible for talking about yourself in a particular way. Like, holding yourself responsible to know that not everything is your fault. And, you know, as I'm saying this, it's like, okay, Ezi you've gotta do some of that too! [Laughter] For sure, right? But like each of us being able to like admit what we need and what's not there, and, and, you know, open space for other people to come into that with us as well. So I, I totally hear what you're saying, right, about that. And I think that really, you know, when I talk about that reflex of whiteness, it's exactly that, right? Like living from your center rather than in response. Right? So what are those movements in our communities that are insisting that we have a center, right? Like Marycarmen is talking about, coming together collectively insisting on our knowledges, not necessarily in defense, but through practicing them. Insisting on them through practicing them. If we practice them, they're there. They're real, right? They're impactful. So really not sitting in a position of response. So definitely, those are things to consider. So thank you. Does anybody have more thoughts on that question, or do you want to move on to a new, a new, juicy one [laughter]? So let's take another one. You know, for those of us that are prescribed to the margins, and definitely we've touched on this a little bit, but what is, what is something? What is your, what is your statement, you know, on how we can thrive in a socially unwell world, right? Through challenge or through self existence? What's your thing that you want everyone to take away? And I'll start with you this time, Tony. [Laughter]. Last becomes first.

Tony Luong  37:39

Totally a little thrown off [laughter], in a good way, in a good way. Um, again, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts around healing Ezi, because I was like thinking about how beautiful that is, like centering ourselves. And part of that means taking responsibility for ourselves as well. I think in response to this question, again, I think I'm just going to talk a little briefly about healing, especially for folks who, with marginalized identities and how difficult it is to seek care to seek support and help and and that is a kind of vulnerability that needs to be treated with an ethics of care as Marycarmen was speaking to. Um, I think a lot about how, with that, being said that something I'm thinking through is how healing can also be like an inside job. It can be something that is such an important process that doesn't need to be contingent around confronting like, people or like the systems that necessarily hurt us. That doesn't dismiss, like, the damage of the hurt that has been caused. Because those are really valid. I think in some ways, it's thinking about how healing can be something that isn't contingent on what outside forces do. But it can be something that we hold inside of us. And I think a lot about how, for me that can make the process of healing, for me, like feel a bit more empowering. So that it's not something that can be taken away from me. As I'm healing from these things, that may not necessarily be because of me, but I can still be responsible for like the healing that I do for myself. So I think a lot about that in response to this question. That's something I'm still thinking through.

Ezi  39:59

How about you Erica?

Erica Violet Lee  40:02

Um, yeah, I really enjoy that Tony brought up the point about Dr. Eve Tuck's paper, Suspending Damage: A letter to communities, which is the was the first thing I had read that was... it was written back in 2016, and it was the first thing I had read that sort of didn't pathologize Indigenous people and didn't, didn't like doom us to a life of tragedy basically. And it was desire based, and it was joy based,  and then I like did more research on it and I found out that's what Black feminists have been doing for a very long time. From like Audrey Lorde, to bell hooks, to Alexis Pauline Gumbs, to Saidiya Hartman. Saidiya Hartman has this amazing book called, I have it literally right here with me because I always carry it, Wayward Lives, Beautiful Experiments: Intimate Histories of Social Upheaval. And in it, Dr. Hartman writes about the lives of Black women who are living freely for the first time post emancipation, in America, and for me, it's such a guidebook and a blueprint, just like all of her work, and so much Black feminist work, that shows us there's more to life than just response, there's more to life than just defense. And we can within ourselves, even in the face of the mightiest oppression, find ways to cultivate that healing, like Tony said. It doesn't mean that the violence from the outside will magically stops. It doesn't mean that our bodies will magically be no longer at risk, as problematic as last term is, or made precarious, made precarious. You know, we're always living at risk for like being Black and being Indigenous and being Racialized in this country means you're at risk of so many different types of violence. But there are still ways to cultivate hope and love, and not always having to live from a place of heartbreak. And I see that more and more and what helps me with that, as well as what Marycarmen mentioned, is collaborating with people from other communities. And getting to know one another in ways that like the white, cis hetero supremacy never wanted us to know each other. So even just gathering together, which is made so much more difficultin the pandemic, but that's why I think technology is such a good medium for this as well, even though, you know, it's lacking a lot in the touch department and we can't hug or anything like that [laughter]. Virtual hug. But still, it gives me a bit of renewed hope in reclaiming technology for revolution, basically.

Ezi  43:38

Marycamen, how about you?

Marycarmen Lara Villanueva  43:41

Um, I just, Ithank you so much, Tony and Erica, I love I love having this conversation. It's invigorating. It's inspiring. And I see that we're reading the same literature, so that's fantastic [laughter]. Um, so I think, you know, going back to the, to the concept of healing. And I've been thinking a lot about that, and about especially now throughout the pandemic. I think this is the time. You know, I remember at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a point where my son was really scared, and he asked me, "Mommy, is this the end of the world?" I said, "No, it's not. It's the beginning of a new world". And I want to think that way. And I think about how, throughout this crisis, how can we center desire, centering joy, centering all the wonderful things that we've spoken about? How can we birth new words? And that is the question that I've been working with. But I do think that, you know, going back to the healing, he said, I think that we need to put a focus on how trauma and how colonization has had an impact on our well being. On our physical health; on our mental health. And, you know, going back to the idea of individualism, we need to step away from individualism and, and ground our working in collectivism. And we need to continue working on, like I said, creating an ethic of care. And one ethic of care that that is radical; that is fearless; that puts life at the center. And I think, um, you know, when I think about that I something that I always, I think it's important to say that all of this work that we're talking about, and that is informing us is work that has been done, radical work that has been done, by Black women. Particularly by Black mothers. So I wanted to read a little piece from one of my favourite books, Revolutionary Mothering, edited by Alexis Pauling Gumbs. And I'm just gonna read us a small piece, a few lines. And this is about mothering: "The radical potential of the word mother comes after the 'm'. It is a space that 'other' takes in our mouths when we say it. We are something else. We know it from health, fearful institutions weild social for social norms and try to shut us down. We know it from how we are transforming the planet with our every messy step towards making life possible. Mamas unlearn domination. by refusing to dominate their children, extended family and friends, community caregivers, radical childcare collectives, all of us breaking cycles of abuse by deciding what we want to replicate from the past, and what we need urgently to transform our mothering ourselves". And so I really like these lines, because, you know, they speak to that collective, right, and to and to, and to have that need to interrupt the cycles of trauma. And also center joy and center all the positive things, center desire. And so, yeah, I think we need to interrupt, also, models that we have learned that are competitive, and that center, the individual in favor for mutual aid for you know, collective care. And yeah, I think I'm going to leave it there.

Ezi  47:38

Yeah. I mean, I think we would certainly be remiss in talking about wellness without talking about mothering because how can you be well without life? Just like, Erica,  you are pointing out right? And, and mothering is a point of new life, right? So mothering beyond birth, because we also don't want to, you know, just say that the only way to mother is to give birth, but also to mother in terms of our collectives, like you're saying in terms of, yes, definitely giving birth, but also in terms of creation, right? And so creating those revolutionary moments is mothering a revolutionary moment, right? Creating new worlds, right, through those revolutionary moments. And so we'd also be remiss in not talking about the very real and terrible things that are happening, you know, globally, in particular, on this land that we that we call Canada, right? What the Miꞌkmaq are currently experiencing in Nova Scotia. Right? What a travesty. What a travesty. And there's so many, you know, unfortunate case studies that we can bring out of that right to talk about the failure of the state, the failure of police policing, right? RCMP just standing by while arson and assault and violations of treaties, law, are occurring, right. So to not to not discuss that [is a travesty], but also to look at how those things are being reproduced globally. Right? We could talk about how that global failure and policing, right? That global failure, you know, to really break away from coloniality. And I as a Nigerian would be failing to not talk about, you know, the current condition in Nigeria right now with with SARS right? And and the youth call to, to disband that. But also going further, once again, to back back to these shores and thinking about, you know, dissolving, defunding, whichever stance, you take policing itself, right. And really, it's a call to dissolve coloniality. Right. So bringing all those things together. And so looking at how those things are tied globally, locally, right? We have to talk then about sovereignties and indigeneities. And about justice, and again, as Mary Carmen, you mentioned more than once, about collectivity. Right? So how would we come together and recognize our various indigeneities? Because indigeneity is global, right? People love to think about just the indigenous of where they are. And, and think about it as a council kind of monolith, right, that has no other voice in the voice here. But there's multiple indigenieties. And so how do we think together? You know, to combat these things; to create solidarities, across our sovereignties, and to create solidarities across our indigeneity. To, to create, right, looking forward, a socially well world? So big question [laughter]. Maybe I'll start with Erica, this one.

Erica Violet Lee  50:38

Sure. Yeah, for me, it has been about learning, and relearning, and unlearning, and spending so much of my time, dedicated to reading and listening to the things that I did not have access to that I was, like, deliberately denied access to: the writings of Black queer woman, the writings of Black mothers, and Black resistance movements throughout history. Like learning, it's sort of the way that we learn about only the the times when Indigenous people in Canada were conquered. So I think of residential schools. There's almost a fetishization of learning about this history among white Canadians now, to the point where I know Indigenous Studies departments have prevented first year students from writing about the topic because it simply can't be handled with enough care. And if it becomes replicated, it replicates all of these harmful ideas that Indigenous people were conquered, that we, that those of us in the country referred to as Canada didn't resist this. And so for me, a big part of my learning process was learning about revolt against enslavement and rebellions that had been going on since time immemorial, led by Black women. I think of Haiti as a huge example of that, that was the first time I had learned about not just the history of Black dispossession and Black folks being stolen from their land and having their land stolen from right under them, but also the resistance to that, which was a huge turning point, in my view of how I viewed my own Indigeneity, and how I viewed my own communities, recognizing like, "Oh, actually, we have a lot more relatives than I had once thought!" And so yeah, I think it's to me now, now that I've seen it, it's one of those things that once you, once you see it, you can't unsee it, you can't un-know what that connection means, once you've seen how much it actually does mean and how connected we really are. So I think that's, like such an important part of recognizing our being as Indigenous people in the land called Canada, is recognizing our kin from other places around the world, who are also Indigenous to those places, and also recognizing that Black folks on this land aren't settlers. And that's something that I think that Indigenous Studies is behind on, but I see more and more, hopefully, that we're getting somewhere on it.

Ezi  54:09

Yeah, and I think that also that learning in that time together gives us new possibilities for reshaping the world. Redrawing redrawing the way it's been drawn for us, right? Again, by the Eurocenter. So absolutely. How about you Tony?

Tony Luong  54:30

I loved all the quotes that everybody shared, and actually there's, if it's okay, there's a quote that I, I would like to share. It's one that I always have in my books just because, I really love the honesty and also the passion that are behind them. These words are from Audre Lorde, it was-- just to contextualize--it was 1960, she was making an address at Harvard University in celebration of Malcolm X. And so what she says was, and this is just part of it. So she says, "to refuse to participate in the shaping of our future is to give it up. Do not be misled, into passivity, either by false security, meaning they don't mean me, or by despair, meaning there's nothing we can do. Each of us must find our work and do it". So that, for me, was such an important reminder of just the ongoing work of when it means to, for me, just like, what that can look like is, I'm creating a space where we value self [reflection]. So whether that means reflecting on my own position of power and privilege, how that shifts within the spaces I'm in, especially when we know that the structure is that we live in, there is social and economic power that operates on the disempowerment of others. And how important it is to be very critical of that. And at the same time, what it means to translate kind of these values into the work that I do. The possibilities. I think a lot about how, from our conversation thing that I'm definitely taking away is just that our conversation around what it means to cultivate desire and hope, in the communities that we're a part of, and are in solidarity with. And at the same time, it's also holding space for grief, I think a lot about how, especially when worlds are changing, like I know, when, when the COVID-19 pandemic happened, like there was a lot of grief and grief can happen at the same time as centering joy. They don't have to be in conflict with each other. So I think a lot about that, and how that is an important part of the community and healing process. And then finally, I think a lot about how there's something that a colleague of mine once talked about, which was how we can hold spaces where we can. I think it was problematizing, this idea of safe spaces, because safe spaces--and it is so important to have these spaces for Black, Indigenous, and Racialized folks--but, I think what's happening is that safe spaces often becomes synonymous with not making folks with power uncomfortable, and not really makes it really difficult to talk about the things that we need to really talk about. And so  it's shifting from that to Okay, what about brave spaces? So knowing that not everything that we can talk about can necessarily be safe, or comfortable. But, it's really important in terms of doing that deeper work of transformation. And so, we can be brave in having these different kinds of conversations and examining our own biases and our own positionality and location, so that we can move towards a world where, again, a world where there's like healing of justice. And, and I know theme that we talked about is collective well being. Yeah, those are some of the thoughts that I've been thinking of.

Ezi  58:50

Yeah. I mean, I love that quote, that you share, definitely, you know, that idea of what can I do rather than saying I can't do anything, because it also puts you in a forward moving position, right? It insists that you actually can do something; that you have power, that you are enough to do something, right? And then also marrying that with the idea, or pairing that with the idea, you know, of brave spaces rather than safe spaces. And what does that bravery need or require in order for that to happen, right? And thinking again, about solidarities then like, how can we come together to make that bravery possible and thereby introduce a level of safety from which we can operate. It might not make the whole space safe as you're saying, but make us feel safe enough to move forward. Right? So the opportunity for  self to feel empowered, but also self to gain power with others, right and with others who might not necessarily hold our positions that that make us feel the need for bravery in the first place. So that opportunity for for collectivity and for solidarity once again. Right? So thank you so much for that. Marycarmen, how about you?

Marycarmen Lara Villanueva  1:00:06

Um, yeah, no, I really appreciate all that has been said. And he really resonates with me. I want to respond to so many things, but in the interest of time.... I yeah, I think about I think a lot about my own complicitieswith the systems of oppression, and I've been trying to be very intentional about moving past acknowledging my privilege, right? But actually, as Tony said, right, how do I translate these values? How do I translate the knowledge that I possess that I have, that I have had access to, into action? And so I think part of that is, I think, besides, you know, mobilizing, and organizing and doing community work, I think my commitment to, to understanding mothering as a political, a very political act. And being very consistent in terms of how I mother, my children, and how I also, I really liked that you mentioned, you know, mothering is not just biological mothering, right? And again, we've learned that from Black feminists, right? There's mother work, there's othermothering. And we can mother, so many things and so many folks in our community. Especially for people from racialized communities, Indigenous communities, and of course, Black communities. We mother others in our community, right? We have aunties, we have different family members who do the, the work of caring and preserving life. And so I think, you know, in terms of being really intentional about mothering, in the service of Black liberation, mothering in the service of Indigenous solidarity, and [asking] what does that look like.And that's hard work. And it is work, it is about, you know, making people uncomfortable, it's about losing, losing some friends, and, and being popular. And all of that is work that's necessary. So I think there needs to be consistency, when we when we talk about, you know, our place in that hierarchy of oppressions, and what we do about it.

Ezi  1:02:29

Yeah, definitely consistency and, you know, I would add humility, because it's not, we're not always gonna be perfect, right? So to be able to say that I'm not perfect, right? And not just to sit in "I'm not perfect", as you say, so you know, that work that work. So to  say, I'm not perfect, and here's what I'm going to do to get closer to being so, right? Absolutely. Wow, there's so much in this conversation! And I'm so grateful for you all, for all of you taking part in it. Any last thoughts that you want to share as we as we move on? Maybe I'll I'll start with Erica and Tony and move to Marycarmen. So last thoughts that you want everyone to take away?

Erica Violet Lee  1:03:15

Yeah, I really liked I, I felt that it was, I feel that it's necessary to sort of give props to Tony for bringing up the importance of grief as well and spaces for grieving. Because so often, and I remember the part you said about you know, love and and care is about more than this like romantic, individualist idea of love and care. And relationality. It's so was so transformative for me, because I remember going through a period of my life where I like couched everything in this very cis, heteronormative idea of like, what love would look like, and therefore what like, love-based resistances looked like. But ultimately, it wasn't dependent on my own freedom, and my own liberation, and but the liberation of those I loved around me, particularly fans and queer folks, and gender nonbinary people. So I think so often we are told to, it gets it's a double edged sword because we're told to first just get over it completely: get over the racism, get over the colonialism, get over the patriarchy. But then second, they only want to see images of us being happy, being being joyful. Like they only want to hear stories about desire, to the extent where it becomes can become fetishizing. And so I think that recognizing that grief and holding space for the grief and the rage, which is something I've learned from Black feminist organizers as well, is also such a crucial, crucial part of that complexity, and acknowledging the complexities of our movements and our resistance and of our lives. Something I learned about recently was a death doula, and grief doulas, and doulas who....I've been thinking a lot based on Marycarmen's discussion about motherhood and creation, [about] the prominence of working as a doula or caretaker in our communities, Indigenous communities in the land called Canada is growing in prominence. And I think that's because people are starting to recognize more and more of the inherent need for spaces where we're allowed to grieve, and we're allowed to cry, and scream, and be angry without it destroying ourselves or destroying anyone around us. So all that, all of that balance is so crucial. And for me, all of that is a part of it.

Ezi  1:06:14

Absolutely. You know, Ithink people don't recognize like, death is a part of life and it's this thing not to be feared and, and how do we live well, so that we can die well, or in the knowledge that we lived while right? And that space for grief being so important and being generative, right? And rage, like rage as being right and not unreasonable.  Brittany Cooper, one of my favorite intellectuals, has a book called Eloquent Rage. [It talks about] rage as not being this thing that is just like, nonsensical and illogical, but actually being the exact logical, perfectly timed response to the bullshit and, and being enough to articulate its needs. Right? So Marycarmen, how about you?

Marycarmen Lara Villanueva  1:07:04

Yeah, no, I think that, you know, speaking or thinking about rage and affect, right? I think affect is just central to our beings. And I think that's one of the, you know, one of the damages of whiteness is that he wants to see once us to separate something that, that is embedded, that is connected. We cannot separate our emotions, from our physical and then from our intellectual being, they're intertwined. So I think all wellness practices should be tied to affect. And also, you know, thinking again, about Audre Lorde, and her beautiful gifts to us, in Poetry is Not a Luxury, she talks about how she invites us to learn more and more to cherish our feelings, and to respect the hidden powers that are in our feelings. So thinking about, you know, grief, and pain, and rage, and happiness and how also, we can push begins, you know, how whiteness and eurocentrism have tried to define those emotions, right? And so, yeah.

Ezi  1:08:32

And to define them in the negative, right?

Marycarmen Lara Villanueva  1:08:35

Absolutely.

Ezi  1:08:35

And in the negative specifically, when it doesn't apply to them?

Marycarmen Lara Villanueva  1:08:40

Exactly.

Ezi  1:08:41

So for sure, thank you so much. Tony, how about you?

Tony Luong  1:08:48

I remember, at the very beginning, we were talking about like, what it means not just like individual wellness, but coming to like a communal wellness; how we need each other, and by needing each other, we also need each other to be well as well. And so part of that is, yeah, whether that's it's not just like operating from a damage centered framework, it's also holding space for joy. It's also holding space for rage and grief. And knowing that, that is all part of this process that is gradual. And I think, Erica, the point you made about love is making me think a lot about how I am relearning love throughout this process of wellness and healing and how important that has been because I think the way that love has been painted has come from a very Eurocentric white framework of just being so limited to romantic love but how love can exist within our friendships and family love, and also like community love and how that can be translate and how transformer that is. And that also, I have to say a lot of me unpacking and unlearning about what love is comes from the works of bell hooks, all about love and her other words which I super recommend [laughter]. But anyways, I think a lot about how it was really through kind of rethinking about love that I was able to also cultivate that love for myself through doing this work where I think especially cuz like living in systems that can create this heartbreak, it's been really healing to then cultivate that self love for myself as I'm going through this journey of transformation, and identity, of healing so that I can do my part and hopefully being with communities to create a world of transformation and healing and justice moving forward.

Ezi  1:11:03

Transformation, healing and justice moving forward. That is the dream. To learn more about Tony, Marycarmen, and Erica, check out the show notes. I'll also add some of the resources that they mentioned during today's show. Thank you all for tuning in, and as always, take good good care.