In Conversation: EP 6 Black Beauties

Rebekah Welcome to Episode Six of in conversation, this Black History Month, I'm here to remind you that black beauty is limitless. My name is Rebekah. And in this episode of In Conversation, I was joined by Alica Hall, Brittany Randell, and Matthew Progress, who talked to us about black aesthetics, culture and creative means of expression and joy, specifically, those drawn across the canvas of our bodies and the spaces around us. Let's jump right in.

Rebekah Thank you so much for joining us here today. I'm really excited to have this conversation. I want to kind of pick your brains a little bit and figure out what it is that you do, especially in how you honor blackness within your work, and how does this process feel for you? Alica, how about we'll start with you --

Alica Hall Sure. Well, I work at the Nia Center for the Arts,which is a black Art Center based in Toronto, it's been around for the past 10 years, really focusing on supporting young people who are interested in the arts as well as emerging artists to hone their skills as artists and connect to sort of a broader network and community of black artists. And now we're working on transforming our space, our facility into Canada's first professional, multidisciplinary art center that's dedicated to art from the afro diaspora. So, you know, honoring the work of black artists, in particular, and black community members, and the ways in which they've created space in our city for black arts and culture is at the core of what I do, I would say,

Rebekah Absolutely, and how does that process gonna feel as you go through all of this work, this transformation that you're working on? How are you feeling about that?

Alica Hall I think it's a really iterative process. Like you're constantly in communication and exchange with different community members and artists to understand the history like the landscape, the cultural landscape that we're living in, that's changing every day. And also infusing both you know, arts practices, and important conversations and dialogue and, you know, different manifestations of art really, into like the ideas for the space and how we envision it should be it should be used and should be created to better serve and act as a platform for our community. So it's a I don't know, I think my feelings about to change every day, but I'm always honored to do this work. Because I think that it's, it's really happening at a really special time, both in our city and in the broader world.

Rebekah Amazing, I hope we can touch a little bit more on that, you know, like the idea of what's happening in the city and how things are changing a little bit. But before we get to that, I'm going to hop over to Brittany real quick and kind of pick your brain a little bit.

Brittany Randell Um, so I am a full time tattoo artists. I am also a co owner of new co-op studio called Eden. We just opened the end of last year. What I primarily focus on is breaking like, the oppressive barriers in my industry, that deal a lot with racism, anti blackness, shade ism, and basically trying to showcase that black people can get tattoos. I also like to always emphasize that tattooing and its origins, like come from black people started with black people. So I just want to bring us back to that. And I feel like it's just been kind of taken over by the white community for such a long time. Yeah, that's kind of what I do right now. And with my co-op space, we actually provide free contracts for primarily black artists that want to get into tattooing to have a welcoming space, which is like it was really difficult for me to find one for myself. So that's what I started.

Rebekah That's amazing. How does it feel like how this new co-op space that you're trying to get up and started? What does that feel like?

Brittany Randell It has its challenges. I feel like the most difficult thing is, you know, finding a place to rent or lease. That's a whole other topic, being black and trying to like rent in Toronto itself. But finding that and then going through insurance companies, I actually was lucky to find a like a black owned insurance company that supported us. So those were definitely the challenges. it was actually quite easy to find artists who wanted to come into this space. So, we actually are fully like booked up. We're just waiting to open because of the pandemic, tattooing is not allowed yet due to the lockdown. But yeah, I'm excited to start, I think my more challenges will arise when we're actually open and things are moving along.

Rebekah Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. We're gonna move over to Matthew, how do you feel about honoring blackness within your work?

Matthew Progress Well, I'm a multi-disciplinary artist, so I make music and work in film, and I also as a day job, write stories at the AGO. So like, my artistic practice is pretty diverse and pretty varied. But I would say, the sort of like the mission of my practice, is to really try and tell new black stories, try and highlight black complexity. And really try and incorporate the surreal and the abstract into that framing of black complexity. And almost with an ultimate goal of, of arriving at a place where there is no unified black identity, where we sort of become complete individuals. And so yeah, so I'm really trying to utilize, you know, futurism surrealism. But then, you know, given the moment that we're at in society, it's still extremely necessary to confine white supremacy and confined patriarchy and all the isms in the in the work so. So, it still does concern a lot of that. But yeah, I'm just looking forward to a time when that doesn't have to be central to every story, though.

Rebekah That's an interesting point. Because I feel like you know, right now, there's so much if this isn't like trying to get to that point, you know, but we're not quite there yet. So I wonder what, how that will liberate us, if you will, like, once we've gotten to that point, what we could, what kind of stories we could tell what kind of work we could produce after the fact. Right, so I'm looking forward to that future as well. That kind of goes into my next question, actually, you mentioned not having a unified black identity of black experience, if you will, or just like this idea of black complexity. And so one of the things that I really want to bring into this conversation with you all, is, you know, what are aesthetics? You know, how would you define aesthetics? How are black aesthetics unique? And, you know, how do you see them defined or represented within the city? Because I think there's something unique about how black aesthetics, kind of live and breathe in Toronto, as compared to maybe other places and like, even the GTA more broadly. So, we can start with Alica on this one again. How would you define black aesthetics, and how do you see them represented in the city?

Alica Hall Yeah, I think it's a big, big definition and category and things. I mean, aesthetics are, you know, principles that are generally concerning art and how we show up, and there's all kinds of ways in which that they manifest. But I think that one thing that to keep in mind around black aesthetics is that they have a relatively at least in a North American context. You know, it's been a relatively short amount of time that black people have had freedom to show up as who they want to show up as, and construct visual representations of themselves, that are, you know, authentically theirs and that they've had control over. So when we look at the, you know, body of work that is considered to be black aesthetics, obviously, is long as we've been able to express who we are in multiple forms, whether during the period of, you know, slavery on our arrival here, and, and those tools and strategies have or continue to, you know, persist, but it's only been a, you know, a short period -- shorter period of time that we've been able to sort of fully construct and use all the tools that have available to us to shape you know an aesthetic. That being said, I think what's unique about Toronto is that the aesthetic comprises so many different cultures, and social references and religious frameworks and just like people from different parts of the diaspora in one place, so, you know, our community here is East African, and they're West African, and they're from the Caribbean, and they're Francophone. And they're queer, and, you know, they're trans and, you know, they're mixed, and they've been here for seven generations, or they just got here. And so all of those different identities contribute to a very unique I think aesthetic and one that's really emerging and growing in its in its it style, I guess.

Rebekah Absolutely no, I think that's really cool because I think that's one of the things that drew me to Toronto specifically, right? Because, you know, there's so many different facets of blackness, which coming to Canada, I didn't necessarily have, like I'm coming from the United States. And so I have this pretty much homogenized vision of maybe what blackness might look like, even though there's still like differences within that. But it's really cool to be in Canada, and specifically within the GTA and see these different different aspects of blackness that I have not been exposed to before. So that's been really cool to see in a creative sense as well. Thank you. How about you, Brittany? How would you define aesthetics, black aesthetics? And how might they be specific defined within Toronto?

Brittany Randell I agree with Alica, in terms of, there's a sense of unity, when it comes to black aesthetics, but at the same time, we are all so different. We all have our own self determination, and our own set of ideas. Yeah, I really don't know, like, how much more I can add to that, because you answered so beautifully. But yeah, I think that's all I can say about it.

Rebekah Amazing. How would you like define maybe like black aesthetics in the tattoo industry, then, you know, and how that might compare to other places?

Brittany Randell I think it's very limited in what we see. Currently. I don't see a lot of black bodies being emphasized in terms of social media. I think that's where tattooing is kind of launched off since like the age of Instagram. But it's slowly building up, which I love to see. Because I think that black people want tattoos just as much as white people do. So it's a great way for us to show our emphasis and set of ideas through what we perceive as aesthetics or beauty, and stuff like that. Yeah, I'm excited. It's, it's just starting, I feel. But hopefully, it gets to be a lot more, yeah.

Rebekah Absolutely. Thank you so much for that. How about you, Matthew?

Matthew Progress Um, yeah, I would echo basically a lot of pretty much everything that Alica had just beautifully laid out. But I would. And I would add that I think the idea of black aesthetics is quite young, in like art history, per se, and like, that Toronto is very unique in the black aesthetics that it showcases because of the the mosaic of black cultures that we have here. You know, regional black cultures, but generational, etc, etc. So we see this full sort of quilt of, of black cultures here. And I think that that there's a stark contrast with the Canadian black experience in that respect, in comparison to the African American experience, I think there is when we think about like, global black aesthetics, or like, there's this, I think the African American, what we consider the African American black aesthetic is sort of, almost at conflict with other types of black aesthetics, and really, sort of, it's inflated because of media, because of the imperialism of America. So we see this African American black aesthetic that almost tries to superimpose itself on the rest of the black world, via white supremacy, not via African Americans. And I think that a lot of us were raised through media to understand sort of the African American idea of black aesthetics as black aesthetics. And ironically, I would call that, when I look at the whole globe, I would call that probably the most simplistic understanding of black aesthetics. And even I was having this conversation with someone the other day, that, that the African American idea of blackness, especially in look, exists on this kind of binary in a lot of ways where one side is like, the like, naturalistic, mystic, like, natural hair natural like, and then the other side is like, a more sort of, where we would see like, weaves and like, perfect square lineups, and like, jewelry, like it's so there's this curated. Right, and it's like, What a silly binary, right? Like you can take from all of that and be all of those things.

Brittany Randell Yeah, it's like through the white lens. Is that is that what you're trying to interpret?

Matthew Progress Yeah, sure. And it's these black tropes, right? Like this is the natural hair since burning hotep woman here and here's the like... you know what I'm saying it like, so there's these, these tropes that like, and I guess it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing, like, who defines these aesthetics? Right? And like, what do they actually come from? And do they reflect reality? And I think a lot of times the answer is no.

Rebekah That's a really cool misconception then because I was when my other questions, you know, what, what are misconceptions about black aesthetics, right, like, and there's a misconception that, like, there has to be one or the other, they can't have this, you know, scale or gradient within, which is where a lot of people exist naturally, right? So I think that's really interesting.

Matthew Progress It's like, no, I was just gonna say, like, it's like, maybe I show up with like, you know, it's like, maybe I show up with an afro and like, a Kente cloth wrap, and a Gucci belt. Like, cuz why not like, and I think a lot of people approach it like that. We don't document it.

Rebekah What would like that documenting look like for you, then in that sort of sense, or is there even need to document?

Matthew Progress Um, I mean, I guess, that would depend on the approach of the documenter. But for me, it would incorporate the surreal, the abstract, you know, futurism, again, I think, are great ways to tell new stories.

Rebekah That's awesome. Does anyone else have any ideas as to like what other misconceptions of black aesthetics might look like? Either like within specifically this GTA context, or more broadly?

Alica Hall To me, there's a undervaluing generally, black aesthetics with both within our community, which is, you know, internalized white supremacy and in the broader media,broader society, where I think there's an association with our culture, being low culture, not high culture, not classic, not, you know, worth, you know, $80 to go watch a show or something. And so, because of that devaluing and undervaluing, it's not supported, and it's not respected. And it's not, you know, you know, invested in by commercial or government support, and so on, and it's not documented. I think it's the other part of it, right. And so there's this like, weird juxtaposition of it existing, and it's thriving, but not really being supported, but somehow still becoming like dominant, and, you know, widely consumed. So if we think of like hip hop culture, and you know, the ways in which it started out, and then has become commercialized and commodified, and now everyone, you know, listens to, watches, consumes hip hop, but yet, it's still not recognized or celebrated by the mainstream in a lot of ways. So I think that there's a general devaluing of our culture, in the way that it's --Yeah, no I feel like I'm going to repeat myself -- the general devaluing of our culture, and the way that it's documented, supported and showcased, period.

Rebekah Period. Exactly.

Matthew Progress That's usually how I think, so I really agree with that strongly. And I would say that comes in that comes with a private, super valuing. It's like people privately, are in love with black culture, and then publicly devalue. And that's why you have this crazy appropriation all the time. And it's like an obsession with black aesthetics, really, but no one wants to talk about it.

Rebekah Let's talk about it. Brittany, you were gonna jump in there.

Rebekah Yeah, I wanted to add on to what Alica was talking about, because it really touches on the tattoo industry, and like, a prime example would be black people not having the capabilities of getting the same tattoos that they consider to be high quality as white folk, whether that be realism, or getting colored tattoos, because black people can get them. And I feel that the narrative in the tattoo industry is that if you have a black artists, you're getting it done in their basement, and they've never had any training and you're going to get infected. And these are always like, just the horrible things I hear about black tattooers, black people getting tattoos. And yeah, I'm just, it's kind of disheartening that we get devalued all the time when I personally think that my work is just as good as any other white tattooer, we are all capable of still getting the same form of training and things like that. But yeah, it's, it's a real thing. In terms of what I do, for sure.

Rebekah Thank you for that. And then well, I think that's an excellent point to be made to and like this idea of, you know, loving it in the secret and not really wanting to be open about it, you know, how do I you know, how does that change over the course of history. I think right now we're in this really interesting moment, you know, with the summer that we've had in 2020, where like, it feels like white people are discovering that, like anti black racism exists for the first time and like that's, you know, an interesting conversation to be had. But I'm wondering, you know, how do you think this moment of like black aesthetics, like, you know, people either loving them privately in this pervasiveness of hip hop culture is going to be looked back upon, you know, in history, you know, like, what might people remember from this moment of time? What does that look like for folks?

Brittany Randell I feel like it's also amplified during Black History Month in Toronto. Like I was just downtown, and literally everywhere I go, is Black History Month, oh, this black person did this, and this black person did that. And I'm like: Where is this the rest of the year? Yeah, I get annoyed a little bit sometimes when I see it, because it's only like, this span of moment where I feel like they like we said they appropriate, the commodify off of it. It's becoming more like a Hallmark month, in a sense. Yeah.

Rebekah That's interesting. Thank you. Any other thoughts as to you know, how this moment of black aesthetics will be looked back upon? Whether that's privately or you know, out loud? I'm not sure. But I think it could be an interesting conversation, because one of the things that I've noticed a lot specially with like Tik Tok culture, like, you know, everywhere, everyone loves to reproduce black athletics, personas, and what have you, but nobody really wants to acknowledge, like, where that's coming from, or give credit where credit's due. I think that's fascinating.

Matthew Progress I think that I need to look at this period as like as like, a time of heightened awareness, positivity around black, the global black struggle against white supremacy. But I think when critical historians, people who look back with a critical perspective, this moment will be seen as the time when, when white supremacy actually co-opted black activism. Right? When like, our sort of like, you know, it's, I always, I'm making this joke with a group of friends consistently that it's like countdown till we have the McDonald's McSit-in, right, we're like, it's like this, like, you know, like Pepsi is sponsoring the Black Lives Matter movement. Like, I think when you turn on CNN, and the headline is, you know, acknowledging white supremacy, it's like at face value, that might be a great thing. But like, has what CNN represents changed at all? And the answer is no. So yeah. To me, I see that as the co-opting of sort of progressive black thought, in a lot of ways.

Rebekah How about you Alica?

Alica Hall I think it's, it's very, it could go either way. In my opinion, like, I think that we're at this like, inflection point. And definitely where society has been over the past five years to where they are now in terms of their ability to articulate support for the movement is really interesting to watch. But it does, I think, to what Matthew was saying, feels very superficial. In a lot of ways, like when you see like, yeah, the Raptors have black lives matter on the court, then, you know, Black Lives Matter on the bus could be selling a shirt that says Black Lives Matter Toronto Raptors, you know, that the institution itself hasn't changed as fast as the marketing campaign. So it could go either way, in my opinion, like we could be having this exact same conversation in two years. Or, you know, perhaps there's this you know, greater level of accountability and more folks are willing to put up their numbers and be clear about how they're actually supporting, and hiring, and retaining, and investing in black communities. But it to me very much remains to be seen and right now all that's happening is a wider spread conversation, albeit, but whether or not that results in anything tangible is unclear.

Rebekah Absolutely. I'm switching gears a little bit, I mean, still in the same vein, but I'm wondering you know, when we say black is beautiful, what does that mean to you? And like and how you choose to express that in your work. I know we've touched a little bit about like what you do and how you go about honoring it, but I'm wondering specifically with that phrase, how that kind of touches you on different way?

Matthew Progress This is a this is an interesting one because well, that phrase black is beautiful is just I guess at this point is so loaded, and so, it just has such a, to me, like a vagueness to it. I think it obviously comes from a beautiful place. But, what is one referring to when using that phrase? I mean, I don't know, I would hope that it would be in reference to just this. You know, I think that like, for a lot of a lot of us who comment and observe black culture and observe black people and, you know, create content that that speaks of the black experience, we see a type of kind of black magic, almost like this other thing that's there. And like, even in black complexity, like here are, here are five completely and totally different individuals who have a total different intersection and different regionally and come from all these different places. But there is this through line of like this other thing that's there in black folks which like, I don't really have another way to articulate it. But I think we all know what that thing is, right? And that's why like, when a viral video of some three year old, black kid, like, who's like a prodigy piano player, or like, has like, memorized a long poem or something like some magical, other, for lack of a better word thing happens, we share it, and we say things like this black magic, you know. And so, when I hear the phrase, black is beautiful I, for me, it's about identifying that thing in people and moments.

Rebekah It's like something intangible that you can't quite exactly express in words, but it tries to grasp that meaning. How about for you, Brittany?

Brittany Randell Um, I feel like Matthew was touching on like, how we may perceive it in the mainstream, but maybe like, looking at it from a private perspective, or, for myself, personally, I think it's about self love. And being able to express who I am, and for others to see that I think that's like, a good example of what I think black is beautiful, like means. And I like to showcase that through my art, I tattoo predominantly black women, black, queer people, trans people, and even just the the black female portrait itself. Yeah, it's really hard to, like, put a literal definition on what that phrase can mean. Or like Matthew said, black magic, but when I like, tattoo a black person, and like, they get a black portrait, I'm like, yo, this is so good. Like, I feel so excited. And I'm just I'm so honored that like, you know, people let me do that. Yeah, it's like this feeling that you get, and it's undescribable. Yeah.

Rebekah Thank you. I also feel that way as, especially when I get tattooed by black artists. I'm like, wow, there's something different happening here. Yeah, like, on a micro level that I can't explain.

Brittany Randell But it feels there's like a deeper, there's a deeper connection and a meaning for me. I also don't like to get to I like to just get black people to tattoo me for the most part. But yeah, definitely.

Rebekah Thank you. How about for you Alica?

Alica Hall Yeah, I've been thinking about this one. Um, I mean, I think the term is rooted in an appreciation for how we show up naturally, like, just fresh out the room, you know, our colors are, you know, the shape and shades of our skin. In the beautiful ways in which, you know, are all our features, you know, show up in different ways. And I think there's just so much like variation in how we all look, you know, but you can always see that, I guess, that indescribable kind of magic that that connects us across borders and generations and ethnicities, which is, is particularly, I think, unique in this time of like, or in these times of massive migration and just like how blackness shows up kind of all over the world in very different communities. But there's still this, you know, recognition between folks, and I think that's one of the things that I love, that maybe isn't quite connected to this idea of black is beautiful, but for me is something that's really special about being black is seeing black people in where you don't kind of expect them and you know, being able to see the persistence of our genes in communities where there's been, you know, still mixing and deliberate attempts to eradicate and eliminate us and yet, you know, we still show up, and I think that that is that persistence is beautiful.

Rebekah Absolutely, I I personally resonate with that too, because I feel like a lot of the things I try to challenge this notion of maybe, what blackness looks like especially for like a black woman, and I always find beauty in that when I see other people challenging that notion as well. Because you know, there's something magical about it, you know, that like people want to put you in a box, and you can't like the box is limitless, like you can do literally anything. So yeah.

Alica Hall I think it's also connected to something that Matthew was mentioning earlier about the complexity of black identity now, and, you know, I actually think that a lot of ways we have arrived at what, you know, people were pushing for in the 60s, of our ability to show up as we are and, you know, be doing photoshoots with natural hair, and, you know, the beauty and you know, a variety of dark skinned women being uplifted and showcased in media, like, I think that that's, you know, that shift is, has really taken root and hold. I think kind of like, the next frontier is being able to show up as we want for ourselves and adorning ourselves in different ways and, you know, tattooing our bodies and not subjecting ourselves to other kinds of, of whiteness, and other kinds of mainstream notions of what blackness is, and breaking out of those molds and saying, Yeah, I want to get my face tattooed, or, you know, I want to color both of my eyebrows, or I want to pierce up my face, you know, like, all of those things are, I think, also now part of, you know, black being beautiful, and being accepted by both our community and the broader community. And I think that's, that's very much tied to, you know, black folks feeling more free.

Rebekah Thank you for that. I guess one of my last questions, as I'm winding down with you all is, you know, we talked about aesthetics, we talk about, you know, the diversity of the black experience and the complexity of the black experience. But how does that kind of work in tandem with like, wellness for you? So my question for you is, what does it mean to be well, keeping all of these different ideas in mind?

Alica Hall One thing that came up for me on this idea of wellness was around, which I think is, you know, connected to these ideas of freedom, is the ability for folks to, like, just live really openly, and very freely, and embracing, you know, opportunities that show up in life that we wouldn't normally feel comfortable to take, you know, because of, you know, what our parents expect us to do, or because of what society expects us to do, or, you know, the constraints of like modern black identity. And I think that part of living well, is seizing those moments, and like really listening to your inner voice and what you actually want to do and doing that. Like, to me that's like a really high form of both, like freedom. And, and that sense of like, you know, a life well lived, right is like being able to follow your own path and carve your own path and create your own path and like, fully engage with the world around you. And I think like, one of the ways that you can do that is just to like, you know, say yes to all those like little invitations, either from yourself or others of things that you want to like, try and explore. And to me, that's like, that's wellness.

Rebekah Absolutely. I love this idea of freedom and wellness, working together. Thank you. How about for other folks? What does wellness mean, to you?

Brittany Randell Um, I guess I could go next. Every time Alica speaks, and like you said, basically, everything that I'm thinking, I think in terms of what I do, I initially started it, because of my son. And at first it was just income. But it ultimately ended up being something that I love to do. And like Alica said, like, seize that moment. And I felt like that's what I did. And my life has been better since. In terms of living well, I think it means just to be like, healthy and you know, appreciative of yourself and what life has to offer you. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to follow a certain path because you are black or things like that. But yeah, I just want to show like to my kids that I love myself, I love what I do. I love showing people like beautiful artwork on black bodies and that it's possible. So I think that's what wellness means to me like being a prime example for, you know, the next generation or younger black kids and showing them that, like whatever they want to do that they can do it.

Rebekah Absolutely. It's really important to like uplift them and bring them along, right? Like give them as many possibilities not limit any sort of possibilities as to what that could look like. So I think that's an ultimate form of wellness as well. How about for you, Matthew? What does it mean to live and be well?

Matthew Progress I really identify with both what Brittany and Alica had to say. So I think the only something I might add is, for me wellness very much is a holistic idea. It's, it has to do with, I'm often self checking and saying, am I being proactive in every sort of facet of my existence? Right? So like: I being proactive with what I put in my body? Am I being proactive spiritually? Like, am I in conversation with the universe? The answer should be yes. Right? Like, am I being proactive about what I've deemed my life purpose to be? Which is, which is art. Right, so like: Am I being proactive in that pursuit? And if I, if I hadn't figured out my life purpose yet, then am I being proactive in figuring that out? Am I being proactive with my relationships? And I think the point is, is is living in intention in all those aspects of your holistic wellness, and it's like that chain theory, like the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. So if there's a particular area of your holistic wellness, where you find that you don't show up quite as much then like, well, that needs to be your area of focus. And that's how you need to get more well. So, yeah.

Rebekah I love this idea of living intentionally and being cognizant, right? Sorry, what were gonna say Alica?

Alica Hall Oh, I just said a word,

Rebekah A word, yup.

Alica Hall Proactive!

Rebekah Proactive, intentionality. That's what it is, honestly, I feel like black culture, and all of its different facets, right? And all of its complexities and things like that. There. There's like, a need to like, celebrate almost, but how do you create a space, if it's even possible at all to fully capture, you know, what that culture is? Because through conversation, you all kind of mention, like this idea of documenting and like, you know, trying to, like capture this moment or capture this, like, creative sense that will give credit. But how do you -- is there a way to actually do that? Is it possible to fully capture that? And if there is, what does that look like? And if not, then why not? Why can't we fully capture that? But I'd love I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Matthew Progress Like, if you think it's possible, I mean, I think I think the work that that Alica is doing with Nia Center for the Arts is, is very much the Canadian blueprint for this question. They're doing unprecedented work that I think is really going to define what our future looks like, as in terms of like, an arts institution for black folks in this city and country. But, but to the original question, I think that there needs to be kind of three type of minds that are involved, like there has to be kind of like business / structure / financially minded people that carve out a space and then there has to be creative minds that that build kind of like concept and culture and and build the output of the organization. And then you need these sort of minds that understand both like that can be a conduit between those two types of people. And, you know, and that's, I think that's an area where we need more people who understand creatives and understand kind of like business's structure and can help that because those two worlds have to be able to function like a well oiled machine together for us to have more Nias in the world.

Rebekah Yeah, and it also reminds me the project that Brittany's working on you know creating your own collective space I think there needs to be more of these spaces that bridge this idea of business and culture and art where we can you know see them together in all kinds of industries right so in you know, the typical art sentence but also you know, in other aspects right, like how do you create the space for like music or you know, fashion like, these are all very different aspects of art, but, you know, they all require their own care, I guess, if you will, with like the business side of things.

Matthew Progress Yes.

Rebekah Thank you for that.

Alica Hall And thank you for mentioning our work in such a generous way. Matthew, I appreciate it because I feel like we're I mean, the way that the question is framed is like such a like when I think of it is such a massive undertaking to truly, you would need like a museum and gallery and a performance space and you know, a small tattoo parlor. Like you just need so much space to, and kinds of, I think spaces to really begin to capture the output of black folks in the creative realm over the past, you know, century. I think we're really just playing pet catch up, right? Like the fact that the African American Museum of History I can't remember, the exact name of the African American Museum of History, I can't what it's called, yeah, the Smithsonian Museum just opened, you know, like two years ago, and, you know, black folks have been in that country for, like 400 years is, is, you know, absurd. So, to begin to capture, all the varied outputs would just take an insane amount of investment and thought and space. But I think, you know, I mean, this space is, has historically been created by black folks in a myriad of ways, in different facets of creative work. But really, what we're seeing now is like, professional, large scale investment into preserving that, that work, and it's important, you're right, that it's, it's needed in a variety of disciplines and industries. And I think one of the unique tensions that I'm seeing is like, a desire for black people to own and, you know, have autonomy over those kinds of spaces. But then also for, for in order for them in some ways to be commercially viable or sustainable, you need like, mainstream also investment and attendance. And so I just, you know, I think constantly think about that tension between the desire for the, you know, black only space, or, you know, black led, black led space, and the also presence and attendance of non black people. And how you just balance that, that dynamic intention that will inevitably exist there.

Matthew Progress Those calls can get a bit utopian, I think they often come from people who don't fully understand how the structure and business aspect of an organization might work. Like, obviously, we want the for us, by us model at all times. But like, it's also like, you got to look at how the corporate world works. Like, white people don't even like, you know, like, these extremely whatever, like wealthy bloodlines that run the world still take loans and take like they, they take leverage from where the power lies, like, that's how capitalism works. So, I think that sometimes we shoot ourselves in the foot in that way.

Brittany Randell Yeah, I think there needs to be more financial literacy in the black community. And that's also just like, being able to find access to that, which is very limiting. That's what I'm actually back in school for because now I am a business owner, I'm learning about investments and Forex and things like that. Yeah, I think there needs to be more of that in order for I feel like the creative realm to really shine and kind of be at par with these big industries, these big institutions that pretty much like keep us down in the low light, which I yeah, it's hard.

Rebekah 100% I think that that's like, you know, these systems are, like, designed to keep people from trying to, like, chase these wrungs, right, in order to access the markets that you know,

Brittany Randell Especially if you're a small business, yeah, definitely.

Alica Hall I'm gonna say, and we need to support, you know, these businesses and these spaces. Because on the one hand, I feel like we're supportive of, you know, black leaders and black creatives, building these kinds of spaces. But you know, at some point, you know, maybe they ran out of food, or maybe they ran out of, you know, X thing, and we're like, mmmm oh, yeah, we're done with this. And so, again, thinking about sustainability and about, for these, like organizations and businesses and institutions that we want to create to exist, we have to be invested in them, and we have to support them. And you know, that everything won't be, you know, perfect, or necessarily always up to our standards, just because, you know, these same organizations struggle to get the same kind of support and the same kind of funding and the same kind of, you know, investment. Like when I thought of this question, I was like, Yeah, what do you need to create a black space and I just couldn't think of any other word than like grit, like, you're going to be doing a thing and nobody is going to care that you're doing it, nobody is going to invest in it until maybe like, it's up and running. And they'll be like, Oh, that's cute, you know, it's a vibe, and maybe then they'll come back. But like, for a long time, no one's gonna see the value of it until like, it's actually thriving, you know. And even then, like, we're not talking about mainstream people arriving and supporting, we're talking about your own community, right? So and when it falls off, no one's gonna come and save it. So you just need to, you know, really be invested and in love with the idea and just recognize the beauty of bringing black folks together to experience that undescribable magic of black people being in a room together.

Matthew Progress I think when you when you couple that approach with the financial literacy, that's when we can start to have some ingenuity in this in this realm, where it's like, bringing our money together in like, savvy, like, you know, progressive ways where like, we can really leverage our money. And then like, fine if we have to create some relationships and some bigger corporate entities then like, making sure we sign contracts that that give us leverage, and don't like sign our life over, but like, create relationships that we can grow into our own power over time.

Brittany Randell Yeah, the black dollar is very, very powerful. I agree with that.

Matthew Progress Amen. There's a reason they burned down black Wall Street. Yeah.

Rebekah I've thoroughly enjoyed this so far. So I'm like, learning my brain is cranking.

Brittany Randell I learned a lot too, yeah

Alica Hall Yeah.

Matthew Progress Me too.

Rebekah Thank you for listening to this week's episode of in conversation. Be sure to check out our show notes to connect with our speakers on their socials. And also take a listen to our past episodes wherever you get your podcasts. As always remember to take good good care. Bye for now.