Don’t Quit: A Conversation with David Strickland

Marco
Peace everyone. This is Marco Adamovic, aka Vic Adamo and this is a Hip Hop Education takeover of The West Meeting Room, broadcasting on CiUT 89.5 FM. We’re on Dish With One Spoon Territory in Tkaronto and grateful for the opportunity to be here. Working with our campus partners and community Hip Hop practitioners, Hart House Hip Hop Education supports values of representation, collaboration, and social justice as we explore the key principles of Hip Hop and it’s importance in our everyday culture. Google Hart House Hip Hop Education to learn more.

In the Winter 2021 term, the Hip Hop Ed team was joined by two U of T student interns who supported our work in exploring Indigenous voices in Hip Hop. We’re thankful to have worked with Drew Rickard and Lloyd Cousins who co-host the conversation for our second episode with legend David Gordo Strickland.

What hasn’t been said about David Strickland? He’s an award-winning engineer, mixer, producer, DJ and visual artist. He’s known for being behind the boards on iconic Hip Hop and R&B records for over two decades. We’re talking seminal tracks by the likes of Pete Rock, Erick Sermon, EPMD, Keith Murray, Redman and Method Man. And records by groundbreaking Toronto Hip Hop acts including k-os, Ghetto Concept, Jelleestone, Kardinal, Jully Black, Choclair and Drake. Ok, I need a second to take that in…Alright we’re good. We got into his love for Hip Hop, his work as an artist and producer, as well as exploring the personal. David’s deep family roots go back generations to the east coast along Mi’kmaq, Innu, and Beothuk lines. In June 2020 he aligned his Indigenous heritage with years in the music industry and community, dropping Spirit of Hip Hop, which starts with an amazing intro by another OG, Ernie Paniccioli, who reframes Hip Hop as modern Indigenous storytelling. It showcases some of Turtle Island’s Hip Hop progenitors and innovative Indigenous artists alike, really showcasing the teachings, art, traditions, and music of the community. I mean, is an hour enough?! Ok that’s it from me, let’s get into it.

[theme music plays]

Marco
We're joined today on the Hart House Hip Hop Education takeover by the incomparable and legendary producer, engineer, and artist - David Gordo Strickland. Peace David, how you doing?

David
I'm good, how you doing?

Marco
I'm good man. We're, we're blessed to have you. There's so much to get into. But I want to start with being nominated for the first International Indigenous Hip Hop Awards. You're up for three nominations for Single of the Year,  Producer of the Year, and Collaboration of the Year. And I wonder what these nominations and the awards mean to you in particular, versus something like the Junos or the Grammys that you've won?

David
Well they mean a lot to me because it is the first. Because I did do a little bit of legwork with those fellas as far as getting the ball rolling, but it's not really about me. The awards, the nominations are for, you know, the album, which is the artists on the album. There'd be no album without the artists. Essentially, the album is about those artists, Indigenous or non-Indigenous. It's about them. It's not about me. I'm just Dr. Dre or Timbaland in the background. And I don't really, you know, my whole career has been about being in the background and pushing other people forward. And that's what this is about. I'm just trying to push other people to the forefront. So I mean, if we, if we do good and we win something, I mean that award to me is for, you know, the artists on the project. But you know, it's not for the awards. But it is good to see that something like that is happening. And we need something like that in music.

Marco
What does it tell you that there is this larger Indigenous voices in Hip Hop? There seems to be a really strong connection there. What does that tell you about this sort of resurgence, Jeremy Dutcher called, when he won the Polaris, called it, he said there's an Indigenous resurgence in music and in everything we're seeing. So I mean, maybe just, what do you think about that?

David
Well, essentially, that's what got me to do this project. That's what this project is about. This project is about giving, giving voices to people. Everybody had a voice, and everybody had, you know, was doing music on their own. But I felt like I saw something special that wasn't being so much recognized by the mainstream, and like, maybe people weren't like - outside of the community not as many people were aware. And I was like, man, if I could, you know, do something special and take what I already do, and incorporate this into it, maybe, you know, we can catch a new wave and, you know, change music a little. And I think that's what's happening slowly. A lot of the artists who are on the album, and not on the album, like a lot of them are going heavy. And you can see the difference now. People are starting to pay attention. So I mean, I knew, I wasn't sure. And I mean, it's not like, I'm not billboard 1, 2, 3. But, I think we're getting heard. So I mean with or without me, it's an amazing thing to see. Whether I'm participating or not, it's kind of overdue I think.

Marco
Yeah, definitely agree. We're gonna get into Spirit of Hip Hop a little bit more specifically. But really just wondering sort of what drew you to Hip Hop? In the beginning? And what keeps you drawn to Hip Hop? What keeps you connected to it?

David
I kinda was talking about this - I wrote an article and I was explaining how, basically, my experience was, you know, I was assimilated through, my, my dad was assimilated. My mother and them were from, they're mixed, but not really knowing it. You know what I'm saying? But my dad’s side, they were pretty much assimilated. And by the time you got to me, I knew we were native, but I couldn't get any answers as a child. But I think that had a lot to do with what drew me to Hip Hop because of the parallels between the cultures. And I think it just was naturally, I was just naturally in it because it was in my DNA, you know what I'm saying. And I mean, that kind of proved that through my career before this. This is kind of a culmination of putting it all together, you know, and I think they all play into each other and they're all part of the story for me.

Lloyd
So David, it’s nice to hear from you today. My name is Lloyd. Anyways, I had a question that I actually heard from, that was brought up at the Producer’s Circle that you were in attendance at last week. You mentioned something about, you used to be a painter. And then you, you gave up that for a while, about 20 years or so. And then you've been doing it again recently. So like, how would you say that maybe that influences your music, or your Hip Hop in any way from now as to opposed to like, back in the day, when you used to do the same two things at the same time? Like, it's like riding a bike, right? You can't, you'll never forget.

David
I think I had, back in the day, it was kind of like, relaxing me. It still relaxes me. I think it was taking my focus away from – there was a lot going on back in the day. But now, I kind of, I didn't take it so much as serious when I was younger. And I didn't think I was, I still don't think I'm good. But I didn't think I was good enough to be doing what I'm doing now. But a lot of what I'm doing now came from ceremony. I wasn't painting, and then I was doing ceremony about twice a month and every week for about like seven years. And I noticed I'd paint after, after doing the sweat lodge and stuff like that. So I mean, I think finding myself and knowing my roots and who I was and stuff like that really helped with the painting, you know what I'm saying. And the music was, you know, when you're producing - when you're not producing, when you're just engineering, engineering can sometimes just seem like you're going to a job, you know, punching the clock and stuff. You're creative, but you don't get to like, it's a little different, right? So I thought, I find that being able to produce and do visual art, I'm able to be more creative. And essentially, that's who I am. And a lot of times I ran away from that, because I was trying to pay the bills, you know what I'm saying. And I would shut that down a lot. And I think now I've had the chance to let that side of me open up more. And I mean, I'm actually in the middle of moving and I'm surrounded by canvases, you know. It's just like, I've sold so many pieces. I've given away so many pieces, but yet I'm still surrounded in canvas, right? So I mean, it's quite amazing that I’m even able to do that. I'm thankful for that gift, you know what I’m saying.

Lloyd
Yeah, the canvas can definitely have some longevity, like I just saw -

David
And now with the crypto art, it's you know…

Lloyd
For sure

David
Yeah, I’m getting into that right away. We’ve already got it set up. Yeah. And then you put the music in there. I could have a piece that I painted with a beat in it. Exclusive. Like, man, yeah. That's, that's combining the two, you know what I’m saying? Then you’re like well, I'm glad I can paint because it gives you different skill sets. And then when you put them together, then yeah, that's pretty amazing.

Lloyd
Um, I guess another topic is maybe, you know, ‘cuz you've been doing work for a long time, since the ‘80s ‘til now. So, like, what have been some of the most surprising changes you've seen throughout the course of like the Hip Hop evolution, from then ‘til now?

David
Musically? Man, it's been a long road to see Toronto winning. It took a long time, but we already had the talent. That's one of the biggest changes. Going to the States and hearing slang that we used to use down there become normal was really trippy. But the music's changed a lot. I listen to stuff like the drum programming, sampling, live instruments, the way the singing has become. Like there was always singing in Hip Hop, people forget that. A lot of like, a lot of ‘80s Hip Hop, you go back and there’s a singer on the chorus. It's not new. But I think the song structure and the mixing. There’s like the technology. There's so many factors that have changed, that have changed music period. But as far as Hip Hop goes, some people probably can't even believe it's still around, and how much it's evolved. I  mean because now you have sub-genres. Man, you got so many types of Hip Hop now that I mean, I saw a station the other day advertising classic Hip Hop station. And it's like, when I was a kid, and I saw classic rock and you’re like what’s that? [laughs] That'll never happen to Hip Hop. And here we are, right?

Drew
So, speaking of your work, your first production project, The Spirit of Hip Hop, which just came out last year. The first track, you know, perhaps is probably the most apt place to start. The intro, the spoken word by Ernie.

[plays sample of Spirit of Hip Hop (first track on the album) with Ernie Paniccioli speaking]

 

Drew
That was really powerful, man. So I just wanted to, you know, maybe get your take on how he, like how he approached framing that, you know, that teaching so to speak, as far as Hip Hop being like - reframing, you know, our drumming, our storytelling, you know, as the emcee, and you know, how did he and how did that inform your work?

David
Well, that started, some friends of mine had a group called Indigenius. And they had this logo, which was similar to this logo. They had their own logo of this. And I really fell in love with that. And Ernie brought the teaching behind that. And they kind of disbanded. And they were arguing about the logo. And two of them who created it, and one of them said, Look, man, just make your own. It's not, nobody owns this. It's the medicine wheel. And it's the elements. However, you want to put them together, like make your own. Then, and so they started making their own and I agreed and I said alright, I want to make my own. So I made my own.

The one piece that's in the McMichael is named after them, because that was a painting before I was doing original work that was, I just painted that logo. I loved it so much. I felt the connection between it, and then Ernie brought the teaching, where you're comparing the cultures. What he says on the intro, and the way that happened was, yeah, I wanted him to touch on that. When I had the idea, he was in town, and I was like, “Ernie, you got to come over and record something. I need you on the album.” You know. We'd already had a relationship by then. So I just brought him in the studio.

And it's funny, he said this to me the other day. He's like  “brother. I don't” - I gotta do my Ernie impersonation. “Brother I don't write nothin. I just put the mic on and I go from the heart.” This is my Ernie impersonation. And that's what he did. I just, and I have pictures where he just spoke, he closed his eyes. He had the mic there. And he just spoke from the heart. And he went on for about five minutes. And I just, I had different ideas. But then I was like, man, this can't be like - originally it was like a minute or something. And I'm like, I can't have a minute at the beginning. Like, you got to go into the album and go. You can't just slow people down, kind of thing. So I made it more strategic to the way it was. I added the drummers. All that music is recorded live. It's not a sample. You know, the flute is Artson, who's on “Turtle Island”. It's not a sample, you know what I’m saying. Like, I put that little bit more into it, and it gave it that impact. And, you know, Brother Ernie’s an OG so

Drew
Absolutely.

David
It was nothing for him. And I mean, we shot the video at his house. We went to New Jersey. That video, if you saw the video, that's actually his house. And some clips are here. And it's very powerful. And he um, it was pretty impactful to come in with him. Because you're, it's not just what he's saying. Here you have this Indigenous man, who’s an elder, who's been around in Hip Hop for you know. Like, he was probably like the only one of us around in New York.  New York's different because like, they don't think I'm Native. They think I'm Puerto Rican or something. In America it’s different. They don't think there's many of us around. So having him there was really good to have. Like, it was important because it established that relationship. So when he came on, it just kind of sets the tone, you know what I'm saying, for what the album is about really. It's like, almost like, not reclaiming Hip Hop, but saying like, all the other music, we’re a part of all that history.

Drew
Oh absolutely. So you mentioned just now, I think a lot of people like they have, especially in the United States, or even in Toronto, I think in some cases, right. People have an idea of what they expect you to look like as an Indigenous person, or -

David
Yeah, yeah. I even get that in the community.

Drew
Yeah, even in the community as well. Absolutely. And not really realizing that, you know, in the 21st century, we have so many different, you know, types of Indigenous people. We have different nations, there are different shades of us, right. There are different hair colors, styles, so on and so forth. So, you know, what has been, I don't know, I guess your response to that, you know, when people are just sort of questioning, you know, you're being who you are, right?

David
I get it on all ways right. I was getting it before. And the thing is like, I already had a career in music. I could have just done an album, could have been any album. Did it really matter? But I chose to do this because I was growing up and discovering more about who I really was. And it changed me as a person. My journey, it changed who I am, because I wasn't like, I didn't have all the answers and nobody could give them to me. And certain events led me to that. And that changed who I am in a good way. So I incorporated that into what I was doing. Right? And then I brought this album, and it could have been anything, but I thought you know what? Let me do something that is about where I'm at in my life. Right?

But there's a lot of people out there that will try to, try to judge, judge me, tell me who I am but at the end of the day, I'm only answering to the Creator. I know who I am. Creator knows who I am. Creator’s rocking with me, you see that in the music, you see that in the art, you see that in the movement. You see that, you know what I’m sayin’. So, um, at the end of the day, I'm trying to make something that, you know, people can relate to, and can help people, you know, and also, you know, have a good time and whatever it is. Because life is a trip, and it's really quick. So I'm just like, Okay, well, let's just be, you got to keep it real, so I, you know, I just try to be true to who I am. True, true to myself. True to myself, and you know, do the best I can. I'm not going to please everybody. I think places like Toronto, like you're saying, and New York, we've been so like modernized that we forget, like, there's not as much visible Indigenous people. Always. So like, you get into that, that state where people forget about us, right?

 

Drew
Yeah, for sure. I can't fathom like what it was like growing up through the ‘80s. And, you know, to your credit, and a lot of other people's credit, those who have been here before us, you know, they have had, including, you know, some of my family. I've heard some of the craziest stories, man, just in terms of like, what people actually had to contend with and how hard you actually had to push. So I think comparatively to today, you know, a lot of our youth don't quite understand, you know, just the difference. Right? Now there are, there are obviously some systemic things that we could go on and on about, but I just had to, you know, give you due respect because I think it's really great to see, you know, how that the Spirit of Hip Hop, you know, how that project came about. And I don't think people fully realize, you know, just the brutality that we've had to overcome, and how hard you’ve had to fight, you know, especially in industries to present, you know, to put something together and for it to have staying power and for it to be like, okay yeah, I want to be a part of that.

David
Well I think, and this is what is probably missed on a lot of people. One of the reasons I was able to even pull it off, or get it out in the platform. Originally I was just doing a record and I was just gonna put it out. And whatever happens, happens. It wasn't about a movement, it wasn't about, you know, trying to be in the forefront. It wasn't about, “hey look at me I've been doing this all these years.” It's not about none of that. What, what really helped the project get to those places was that my reputation or the amount of work I put in up until that point, you know, made it more valid. Because people around me who I’ve known for years, you know, like I was doing something like that maybe hadn't been done. But because of my track record, people like know it's oh, this might be something different.

Like, I got the attention of people I knew because I knew so many people, because I put in the work over the years that it was like, I wasn't running around going, “hey, I want to put up this record. Hey, somebody listen to me.” I was just doing my album. And then people were hearing “yo, I heard you doing this thing.” Oh, yeah. You want to listen? And then I play some stuff. People are like, whoa this is good. And it was that that made it into what it is. It wasn't me going around being a salesman. Like I might have just put the album out. Like it was the labels that were bothering me, “hey, can we put this out?” I'm like, I guess so. I didn't think it was that big of a deal.

I was just a little kid in the corner playing, you know. I just like makin’ stuff, and it’s, I'm amazed at what it's become from where the idea started, right. And that's a testament to perhaps the amount of work I've done because there's been so many times I’ve tried to run away. So I mean, if I did run away, it might not have happened, if I didn't take, you know, who I was seriously. But that was one of the things I was like, oh, like, okay, tell me more. And then I started asking questions and finding out and that's where the ball started getting rolling. And then the more and more I started learning and doing and meeting and becoming who I should be and who I feel like maybe I was robbed of being. But anyway, that's what led me here. And if it wasn't for that, we might not even have the album.

[Sample of the track “Truth” plays from the Spirit of Hip Hop album]

 

Drew
You had talked a bit about, well just now obviously, just the process, right? And I think a lot of, a lot of artists these days, I think, you know, I'll be the first to admit, I was in the same sort of a position maybe when I was like 20, 19, right, where I wasn't, I was getting so frustrated that things weren't happening right away. And I think a lot of, you know, artists, creatives, right, they don't really realize that there is no straight and narrow path and that you know, because it's an industry, you know, that deals in public opinion, you know, that factors in. A lot of it is subjective. So you have to kind of build, you know, a thick skin and at the same time really love what you do - love what you do so much so that, you know, everything aside, you just bring it back to what you were saying. I wasn't focused on, you know, getting, like selling the work or whatever the case was. These things sort of came about. So I think, if I might ask a question. I mean, like, what, was there like a turning point where you were like, I really want to quit right now? And, and then, you know, maybe a month later you came around, and you said, “No. I'm gonna, I'm actually going to do this.” Was there anything like that?

David
As far as the album goes? Or just in general?

Drew
Just in general.

David
Oh that's happened a million times. I've been in situations where like I wasn't getting paid, or I didn't get paid enough or it wasn't worth it. Or, you know, you're sacrificing things. And what am I doing this for? Or you do all that and then you get there and there's nothing and you're like, what the f-?! I've cried driving down the street from situations because I’m like, I put all this energy and then they forgot about me. Yeah, I've been forgotten, me personally, been forgotten about many times. On credits, thank yous. I've never been thanked for a lot of stuff. I’ve been left out a lot. Yeah, I’ve put in a lot of work. And sometimes that hurts people. Sometimes all you need is a pat on the back - I was the assistant in the corner who didn't know anything about most of the gear in the room but loved music and wanted to learn and had a passion and, and you know, wasn't the best producer and, and wasn't taught how to play. And, you know, I'm the underdog and people want to diss me, but I'm going to keep coming back fighting. Right? And that's the only reason I'm still here.  And this doesn't just apply to music this happens in every type of thing. Right? Whether you're a cook or whatever, you know. So, I mean since you brought it up. I'm going to show you right here like on my arm. I know they can't see it, but you guys can see it and it says “don't quit”. That's my mom's handwriting.

Drew
Wow.

David
It says “don't quit, love you lots”. And then that's a waveform of her voice that I can play it on my phone. When I'm down, I can hear her telling me “love you lots” because that's what she used to say. “Love you lots!” And it says “don't quit” because she used to be the one to keep me going when I was down and could like pick me up and stuff. Like, if I was broke, my mom would just come by and hide money in the house and then tell me later, “Oh, are you okay da-da-da… Oh, I hid some money under your da-da-da…” Like stuff like that, like my, you know, my mom was like that. And that's kind of one of the things that kept me, you know, people in my life who kept me, my dream alive. You know what I’m saying, who believed in me.

You got to take breaks. That's the other thing. I have this all the time and I get frustrated. You can't just keep, you got to take - I made a beat last night. We were talking about that. So like, I was making this beat the other day, kind of got frustrated. I kept telling myself stop and go do something right. And then I never got back to it. I had to go make another beat and do this other song for somebody. And then last night, I was like, okay, let me get back. Okay, what was that beat? And I pull up that beat, and I was like, oh, snap, this is crazy! Oh I just need to add this and that. And then I was like, Oh, it’s done! Right?

So the point is, that break gave me perspective. Right? Yeah, sometimes you need to do that. Like, I do it all the time. Stop, go paint for a bit. Then go back to the music and the mixer. Or producing, or housework or something, you know? I got to go to the store, let me take.. Because sometimes that grind and just doing it is good too. It all depends on vibe, man. Yeah, I keep tellin people it’s all about the vibe. People don't understand vibe. Yeah, I get in arguments with people like that sometimes. It’s like, “yo, you can't mess with the vibe.” Some people try to mock me, “oh your vibe” and I’m like yo, man. It's a thing! Like, I can't be distracted if I'm in a zone, man. We're all gonna have times we're frustrated trying to make something. But I’ve had times, especially when you're in a particular situation, but where you're just on. Where you’re like bam bam bam! Like something, boom, boom, boom! Oh, shoot, I just made this crazy piece of music in like seven minutes! And people are looking at me like holy cow. And I'm like, I have no idea. I did everything on the fly. I didn’t have a plan. I can't play anything. It's all my ear. I'm moving stuff around, doing stuff in the computer and going by this and this and this. [gestures to head, heart and ears]. I don't know what the hell I'm doing. It’s a vibe.

[Sample of the track “Turtle Island” plays from the Spirit of Hip Hop album]

Drew
No that’s the whole point man. And I think you touched on it. I've heard, you know, tons of lyricists. like J. Cole, like Nas, like some of these greats. You think of Canadians - Robbie Robertson, right? People who have spoken about how really it comes to really loving what you do, and sometimes you go through periods where you're just not going to do anything at all. Sometimes you go through periods where you're going to do everything all at once. And I think -

David
Right.

Drew
I think this is where you find, you know, a distinction where you have the real artists and people who know, you know, what it is that you’re talking about

David
And also what are you in it for too?

Drew
Yeah.

David
That has a lot to do with it. Are you in it to get rich? Are you in it to make money? Or are you just like, this was a hobby. Painting was a hobby. Doin’ music was my hobby. Yeah, Maybe I was like, Oh, I'd love to do an album and like, I used to rap, but chances are, it's not gonna happen. But you know what, I'm still into it. So I'm still gonna do it. And then if it becomes something… Like the fact that I sell - I'm gonna, when we finish, I'm going to drop off a piece to somebody. The fact that somebody pays me money that I can use to pay my bills and stuff. Not that that's my main gig. But just the fact that somebody gives me money, that it's that good that you're willing to pay. That blows my mind. Am I that good? Oh, that's awesome. I think, if you would have told me when I was 12 or 14 or 15 that one day people – don’t worry kid,one day somebody is gonna get - I would have been like, no way. But it happens. And why? ‘Cuz I didn't quit… And not that I did it for that. That's an added bonus. You know what I did it for? Myself. Because I enjoy it. And I want to look up at the wall and go “Wow! Not bad G. I’m pretty good.” I'm proud of it for me. That's it. Anything after that is awesome. Being in the McMichael was like, come on. There's no way. How, how did I even get here?. All that stuff just inspires you more. That inspired me. After that exhibit, the curator said to me wow, you know, you really took advantage. Not took advantage, but like, out of all the artists I was allowed to go there anytime I want. I would go there as much as possible. You know, I was up there all the time looking at artwork, painting, they would let me use the land. I’d go do ceremony, I'd bring my pipe. I'd be able to do in ceremony, drumming, my pipe, out in the land, walkin’ around. Like the whole experience for me was bigger than just my paintings are on the wall. I’m like going this is Canadian history. This is Turtle Island history. I’m a part of this. That's, like, I should be so lucky. You know what I’m sayin’, so I mean I try to take all those things and appreciate it as much as I can.

Drew
You know what you're describing is the artist. You’re describing the artist, the real person, the real McCoy. There's a difference between the artist and what I would call you know, a poser. You know, there are a lot of posers, who, you know, that are out there, whether it be Hip Hop music, whether it be music in general, whether it be broadcast, whether it be whatever

David
There’s a lot of wack Emcees.

Drew
Yeah. So how, like, you know, I guess this is more of a personal question, like, how do you deal with like, just maintaining - like what do you do to bring yourself back to like focusing not on that and focusing on just being yourself as like, you know, on a day to day basis. You know, what do you, what is there any one thing like, as far as maintaining -

David
Well balance. Balance is a key because, you know, having ceremony in my life has made me kind of be like, a better person and nicer. Life sometimes gets you down, so I had to have a balance. Bringing the ceremony gave me more of a balance and a purpose. And the exercise like, I'm, I'm starting to get back. I'm starting to train again. Yeah, I haven't been training for a year and a half or so. But training and the ceremonies gives me the balance so that I don’t go to places that I don't want to. Because sometimes life will get hard on you and you get frustrated. And that's how like people lose their temper and stuff happens, because you know, you're not keeping that balance. But I'm trying to be a better person because of that. But before I might not have cared so much. I was just trying to, you know, that whole hustle mentality of money first and, you know, just go go go capitalism, blah, blah, blah, right. It affects your life.

I know a lot of people that get sick and stuff from like, like life. There's a lot of factors in getting sick, right? So, it's for me, I try to keep a balance because it's so easy to get lost in the sauce, you know what I’m sayin, and forget things. I eat properly. Okay, I eat three squares a day. Like I get up. I have breakfast. Right? And, I make sure I have a lunch. Even though my times are shifted, I get up at about noon. So my whole thing’s shifted. And then I make sure I have a dinner, like a real dinner, whether I buy it or make it. I don't just eat candy. You know, so anyway, the point is the balance, because it's so easy to not have that and then all sudden, you're like, you're sick because when you're too busy with all these other things in life you’re not always conscious, or that's not always your priority. Right? You're like, I'll do that later. I'll worry about that later. But it's like a little everyday. You got to be on top of stuff, right?

Drew
Yeah 100% percent.

[Sample of the track “Time’s Runnin Away” from the Spirit of Hip Hop album plays]

Marco
I do, I mean, I do have a couple of questions. I really just, I guess connecting sort of authenticity and mentors. You know, you mentioned your mom, as sort of these figures that have come, been on your path. And really just thinking about the role of mentorship, whether it's sort of formal or informal, and how, you know, what is the learning that is needed? And I guess, you know, we're talking about music and life, but I think if you can speak to both of those, like, what's really important for artists to know, for particularly young artists that are sort of coming up? Like what do they miss out on by not having that?

David
Well, yeah, you know, it's funny, you say that, because the whole process has changed now. People now can just go buy, like - it's good and bad. Because you're gonna get the guys that are gonna come through that had the talent that nobody believed in, that just went into and did it themselves, because now they can and we can hear them. But then there's the guys who need that mentorship are not going to get the experience from that. Right? So those are going to slip through the cracks, right? Because now everybody can just go by computer, buy what they need. Now I'm making that sound easy, but you're also not going to learn as much because some - like a lot of my learning I learned from watching. Just being in the corner and watching. And now the computer changes everything. It's hard to explain all these plugins used to be gear. It was expensive. We used to go in and just shop for gear all the time. Now you just go on your computer, bah bah bah plugins like, you know. And then, it's gonna be overwhelming. There's a lot to be learned from others in being in that context together, being in a space learning, right? And when you take that away, a lot of people missing out. Like, it's not just, it's not just the person being mentored that gets something out of it, right? You know, when you're teaching somebody, like I've had somebody called me their mentor, and I'm like, whatever. I just laugh. I laugh because I think it's funny, because I'm like, I'm a knucklehead too myself. So I'm like, yeah, you don't wanna learn that from me buddy. Stay in school. You know what I'm sayin’ - because I got lucky.

But you, the thing about being if you're mentoring somebody and watching somebody who you believe in, oh, this guy, or maybe they're not the best, but your like this guy’s got heart and seeing how your effect or stuff you've taught them, especially if they acknowledge it, go “man, you taught me so much, so much. And remember when you did this, and then look, I did that” and then seeing somebody accomplish something that you believed in or, or whatnot. I just go wow, man. Because I know people who've done that for others, or for me, and who've come to me and said, “yo, you know, you, I'm proud of you.” And that is what makes it all worthwhile. Or you being proud of them saying, “Oh, I'm proud of you” you know what I'm saying. Like, because that's sometimes all we need, you know. You need, you need that support system, your friends, your family. Like, sometimes, you know, we can't always do it on our own. Sometimes, you know, people in situations they can, but like for the most part, you can't possibly know everything. You got to learn stuff from somebody anyway.

Marco
But it speaks to a certain stick-to-itiveness or just like initiative. Like, let me see if I can do this

David
Yeah, because you gotta try right

Marco
You can get hung up on oh, I don't know how to do this or this or this. But it's really just about sort of doing what you can, and I think reminds me of this sort of adage in academia that's like the best papers are the ones that are handed in on time. Which is not about the quality, it's more about the process of just finishing something, right? And I think in music and in creation, it's, you know, the muscle of starting something is really well developed in most people. But, the muscle of finishing something is, is the one to sort of work on right.

David
Finisher. You gotta be a finisher.

Marco
You got to finish your things.

David
A lot of people suffer from that problem. I know a lot of people who have that problem - will start projects and never finish them.

 

Marco
Yeah. I want to sort of get into some records and specifically records that are meaningful for you from your catalogue. So just wondering, what are some, what are some of the most meaningful records in your entire catalogue? And why?

David
There's a few. There's one that will always be like - and you know, I've explained this before. A lot of times now, this is the cool thing about doing what we do, is you get to have, okay you ever have that song that you’re like, “oh, remember that summer?” And it reminds you of that summer. So when you're like in the song as the engineer, producer, I get to have that memory of creating the song. That's something I never thought about ‘til I started having it happen, right?. So there's songs like that, because my catalogue is so deep now that I've like touched a lot of songs. Some bigger than others. But I have those. One of them is a song called “Rite Now” which is on Red Gone Wild. Who's the sample? Al Green. Al Green sample. Erick Sermon produced it, I believe. But the whole memory of that project was a whole Red Gone Wild experience. But that song, I love that song. I love the sample. It was one of the songs where I was like, I just experienced, I have good memories of that time, right. So that's one of the reasons why I love that song so much.

But there's ones like that, what’s another one? Husslin’ - Kardinal. I recorded that in the basement way back. Yeah, I started doing a mixtape, like my greatest hits kind of thing. And it was hard. Because I would narrow it down and narrow it down and narrow it down. And it just, it's kind of like, um, I have a Behind the Boards playlist on Apple that they give for like producers and engineers. And even that was hard to like shrink down to your, like you're saying, your most memorable songs. Now sometimes that would be most popular. Not in like what your question is asking. But for me, I just, there's ones like Lord Knows. I didn't. I don't think I engineered on that but that's just my song because of that. And I have memories because of 40 hittin’ me you know and talking about “yo Drake says he hears they say ‘Gordo’ in the chorus, not Lord Knows” And I'm like that's hilarious, right. Like I'm like, that's my song. Damn too bad I didn't make the beat or something. I think that was Just Blaze, right? So I don't have a credit on that song. But that one counts.

Wu-Tang Forever. That's one of them. There's a story behind that. There's a bunch, I'd have to give you a list. you know. It's hard because you get to, if you're lucky, you get to have a lot of those, you know. And some projects become more successful than others. There's a song on the Glenn Lewis album, Beautiful Eyes. That's a song that I love that I always listen to that’s not Hip Hop. It's just the whole experience of doing that project. Those producers, Dre and Vidal, they came to Toronto. We were doing that album ,we cut that album in a place called Sound Field. That was a studio that was built in the ‘70s that had crazy acoustics. I mean, behind the couch in the studio, the acoustic panels. The diffusers were so deep and wells were so wide that I used to always make jokes because they were so big I could hide in them. That’s how big the wells of the diffusers were. It had isolation chambers up in the air. Like the whole studio, it was done right. And it would cost a fortune to do it now. Unfortunately, that building has been torn down. It's a condo. But that studio was crazy. And that whole experience. Dre and Vidal came - they just did the Butterflies with Michael Jackson before they came.

So here I was, summer of 2002, in the studio with these two producers from Philly. And they were with a Touch of Jazz, which is Jazzy Jeff's guys. And I'm in the studio working with them. They just came from LA working with Michael Jackson, and I'm in the studio recording Glenn Lewis. And they're like writing music on the spot. And I'm the engineer, right. I was also doing a Ghetto Concept album. I was working with Jelleestone and Point Blank. And I'll do like four or five albums just that whole summer. And a couple one offs here and there - sessions come up. But that whole experience of, we did that album like a rock album - like we're, we go in the studio for a month or six weeks, and then they go, they go mix, right. And I was, we recorded that actually on a Tascam 24 digital, those machines, they just came out. Because that was around the time when the transition was going from ADATs and T88s to Pro Tools only. Right?

So you know, that whole experience, I can tell you everything. I could almost smell and taste that summer, just talking about it. Where I lived, who I was dating, what was going on in my life, just from listening to those songs from that album for me, personally. And then you have the flip side of somebody who, ‘cuz I don't think that album came out till later, the single was out - Don't You Forget It was a huge song. You know, you're riding the wave of success. And there was a bunch of records that I worked on that were doing well. So around that time, I was like, one of the guys, one of the go to guys in the city. But that album and like the, so those, those are the kind of songs that bring back those memories.

That's special for me because I, what I would do is when an album come out, I'd buy two copies, and I wouldn't open one. So that I'm like, yeah, when I'm 70, because I'm, I have an exit strategy. You know, I want to be able to, you know, one day not be doing any of this and going yeah, I used to do music and then pull up stuff and play it and, you know, freak out my granddaughter or something. That's what the beauty of it. Like the other day I was in the [Toronto] Star, and it was in the print. And I couldn’t get a copy. My daughter got a copy. And she sent me a picture of my granddaughter with the picture and I was like, wow, she was propping it up saying “yo, Grandpa’s in the thing!” And I was like, that was what made it, you know, like, wow. Like, that's, like I'm having experiences that I never got to have as a kid on the other side that I wonder how that would have affected me, and watch them, you know what I’m sayin’?

Marco
But you're also able to give, you also in some way providing that for your for your kids.

David
Right, right

Marco
So you’re giving it to yourself right. In some ways.

David
Yeah.

Marco
I had a couple, one more question about tracks. And like, this is like the deserted island question. If you could only listen to two tracks and one album for the rest of your life. What would they be and why?

David
Oooohhh. Oh that's a tough one. Um one of the first ones that came to my mind. Well, my favorite Hip Hop song of all time is EPMD - So Wat Cha Sayin’ and then I know the story behind it. You got to throw in the Nas album [Illmatic]. Then there’s songs like Michael Jackson songs that I just like. Beat It. Or, you know what, when I graduated from engineering, guest speaker at my graduation was the engineer from Thriller, Bruce Swedien - who just passed away, a few, a little while ago. And, you know, man, that's a good one. Because there's so many albums. Like I got stuck into a ZZ Top vibe last week, because I watched the documentary. Right, that documentary was so good to see so many good albums. And I don't think I would stick to Hip Hop like, man, there's so much good music. Like you ever get like songs come on, like Depeche Mode song comes, I don't know how old you guys are, like, there'll be like a Depeche Mode or New Wave song comes on, and I was into Hip Hop back then, but I would love certain other genres. And those would be one of those songs like, oh, man, you just like - but forever? That’s a tough one. I'd say Spirit of Hip Hop. [laughs]

Marco
Yes. That's the answer. Are there other genres that you would think about like working in or want to work in?

David
Oh, yeah, I've done you know, I've done rock songs. I've done a lot of Reggae, Dancehall. I'd love to do more dance music. I’d try some Country, but I'm not so big into that. But Blues, Soul. I'd love to do some sessions like that. I got to record Patti LaBelle once, by accident. But like, yeah. I'm willing to try it. You know what I'm saying like, why not?

Drew
Yeah, I think Braeden had a some things that she wanted to say she's been -

Braeden
Yeah, I'm just listening in. And this is great.

Drew
Yeah by all means. Jump in.

Braeden
Thank you. Um well, just, you know, when we started the conversation you said you like being in the background. And then just the thing, I feel like in the background of all art is this like, I always picture this like invisible netting of relationships. Like this ebb and flow of relationships that you don't see. And being in relationships is also something that we kind of learn how to get better at over time. And just as someone, you've had so many collaborative relationships in your life, I just would love to know your perspective on like, what do you think is essential in sustaining relationships, like, in a good way?

David
Oh well, communication is definitely key. Keeping it real. A lot of people don't like, people sometimes are apprehensive about being honest about what they think, you know. I've gotten, I've had good, you know, we've all had good and bad relationships but sometimes you don't know how to convey what you're trying to say. And just being able to communicate really well helps the flow and the vibe. And a lot of times I didn't really look at it like that. I just kind of was like, just tryin’ to go to work. And I didn't really think of it like that I'm collaborating. I didn't put as much value on myself really. I just thought I was just a schlep going to unload the boxes. And just, you know what I'm saying like, and I didn't look at how people viewed me, right. I was just happy to be there. So I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it took a while for me to realize that, Oh, I think I might be actually pretty good at this. Maybe people want to work with me, right?

And so one of the key things was - and the other one is keeping an open mind. Like, with the studio ethic, it's sometimes, it's like, as an engineer, it's like, I don't have a say on certain things. But sometimes you have to speak up. And sometimes you have to stand down. And sometimes you're wrong. You gotta know when to fight, and what to fight for. Because sometimes, there's nothing wrong with being a bigger person and saying, yeah, you’re right, it didn't work. Or the other one is trying stuff. This is what I remember learning this in school actually, haven’t had to do this in a while. But I used to do this all the time. And somebody would say something, and it didn't work. And I would just be like, okay, let's try this. Just give me five minutes. Let me try it. If it doesn't work, we'll go right back to where we were. But let me try it. Because then sometimes it works. Or you discover something, right?

So don't be afraid to try things. And depending on who you work with, sometimes, like you're working with somebody who's like, you know, more experienced or more famous or whatnot, and you just like, you know, you don't know how to, you could be nervous or something, you know, like, you got to kind of like, give yourself the, I don’t want to say courage, it's more like give yourself the credit. Like, if I know what I'm talking about, and you tell me I'm wrong, I'm not gonna stand down, right, I'm gonna hold my guns ‘til the end, if I know I'm right, factually. But some people will, will do that when they're not right, or they're not sure. And that sometimes causes problems. You got to know when to hold ‘em, when a fold ‘em and all that crap. And trust. I just went through that the other day where I gave somebody a beat, and then I used it for something else. I never told them that yet. But I was like look, just trust me, I'm going to, I'm going to do you a favor. I'm going to sit down and start all over and make something better than what we were doing. And that's what I did and he trusted me. And so that made a big difference that they trusted me and it turned out really well. So I mean, there you go, right.

Marco
David Strickland, any final thoughts as we wrap up?

David
Damn, we covered a lot of stuff. Hopefully you can be informed, you can be in touch. My website www.davidstricklandstudios.com is about to relaunch. So I got some good stuff happening over there. You know, I'm always available through social media, mostly Instagram right now. I don't really go on anything else. Yeah, I keep my phone out of my hand as much as possible. Keep the TVs off. I'm trying to stay focused. But you know, I'm always available for questions or if you need something or whatever, holler at me.

Marco
It’s great to have the chance to speak with you today, man. And thanks so much for joining us on the Hip Hop Education takeover. So just wishing you all the good things

David
Thank you

Marco
Health, wealth, happiness, continued success in music and life in the future and beyond.

David
Thanks for having me. I appreciate you guys reaching out.

Marco
Such a treat man

David
And yo, did anybody learn anything today? [laughs]

Drew
Oh 100% I've just been listening. Yeah, 100%

David
Because I like to think that maybe, you know, like even just, you know, people could take something away from the conversations. Because a lot of times, you know, a lot of engineers don't go out, like and do interviews and conversations. Like when I was coming up, I couldn't go find a podcast or radio station where I can listen to the engineers. I can give you a list of guys that would have been awesome to hear, you know what I’m saying. That's something we need more. We should - like, it almost makes me want to start an engineering podcast where maybe there's some out there where like, we just talk about dope engineers, and talk about legendary engineers in the past. Or, you know, guys who have come and gone or who’s current, who's running game, who's like, that might not even… I don't even know if that's a topic of a thing. But there definitely should be a show about. And if there is, I’d love to be a part of it. So thank you guys for having me. Maybe I just gave you an idea.

Marco
Well, you know, we can hook up on that later. That's, we’ll put that in the tank, man. Yeah, definitely. Lots of good stuff in there, man. And I think what really came out also was just, like, you know, it's easy to be like “he's an engineer”. But you know, that's just one aspect of who you are.

 

David
Right. Yeah, because I'm sure there's probably so many engineers that what I was talking about that didn't just engineer. Yeah, like, some of them were producers. But there has to be stories that we don't even know about, because it's a science. People forget that. Like my degree says I went like Arts and Sciences. I'm a scientist. I always make jokes to people. You know, I'm a scientist right?

Marco
Man, hey, Hip Hop Scientist. You coined that.

David
No but like, all the equipment is so complicated and hard to learn. That's why the studio looks like a lab, right? We are scientists. But that got lost on me because I'm in there for the music, right? So you know, it's pretty crazy. And people, people don't even realize what we do, how vital we are to everything: video, film, TV, radio, music - like you take the engineer away, and you got a bunch of artists standing around, wanting to do stuff, goin “what do we do?”

Marco
You’re the bridge man, for sure.

David
Hey, thank you for having me, Marco. You're a great guy. All you guys are great. And ladies. And I appreciate all the love and, you know, holler at me anytime. I appreciate it.

Marco
For real man. Yeah. Stay safe.

David
One love.

[Everyone says thank you. Outro music plays]

Marco
That was our conversation with David Gordo Strickland. You can check him out on online at davidstricklandstudios.com, on social media @david.strickland and of course Spirit of Hip Hop is available on all streaming platforms. I want to give a big big shout out to Braeden Doane for her work on producing today’s episode. Look out for another Hart House Hip Hop Education takeover coming soon. In the meantime check us out at harthouse.ca. I’m Marco Adamovic. Peace.