Museums and Diversity: In Conversation with MPOC

[Intro Music]

Melissa
Hi everyone, and welcome to The West Meeting Room. Today's episode is hosted by me, Melissa, one of the newer producers of the show. Today, I'll be interviewing my friends Dominica Tang, Denise Tenio, and Megan Sue-Chue-Lam from Museum Professionals of Colour, or MPOC. We're going to dissect some important issues around diversity, equity and inclusion in the museum sector, the distrust between museums and the communities they are supposed to serve, and finally, holding museums accountable for their actions, or lack thereof. I am so excited to share this piece with everyone. Not only is it my very first podcast, but I think these issues are important and often get hidden in the museum world. Without further ado, let's get started. 

[Theme music]

Melissa
Alrighty, so thank you everybody for being here today. I'm very excited to start this conversation. We are welcoming Dominica, Megan and Denise from Museum Professionals of Colour, who I will refer to as MPOC for the rest of the hour. And MPOC, from what I know, is a very great group that originated in the Faculty of information at the University of Toronto, addressing the lack of racial diversity and representation in Museum Studies. They are making waves outside of U of T as well, which I'll let them talk about a little bit later. But before we get into anything, I was wondering if we could kind of go around the “room” and do some introductions. So just who you are, what you do in MPOC, and anything else you'd like to add. So maybe Denise, we can start with you if that's cool?

Denise
Okay, how did I know that I was going to be first. [laughter] Alright, Hi everyone. My name is Denise Tenio. My pronouns are she/her, and I am a settler of Filipino-Chinese descent. So my position with MPOC is as Outreach Coordinator. We do have these positions, but we don't like to necessarily stick with them, we like to dip our toes into everything. But for the most part, my role is Outreach Coordinator. I'm in my second year of the Museum Studies program here at U of T. Prior to doing my MMSt, I was a teacher in South Korea, and I did that for about two years, and that was a really awesome experience. But yeah, excited to be chatting here today with Melissa and yeah, I'll pass it over to one of my colleagues. 

Megan
Hi my name is Megan Sue-Chue-Lam. I am a settler of Chinese descent, born and raised here in Tkaronto. Although I'm new to U of T, I'm also a second year Museum Studies program. I did an undergrad at Queen's, and a teaching degree at Queen's as well before deciding to come back home for grad school. I, along with Denise and Dominica, am a co-founder of MPOC, as you said, Melissa, and I'm currently acting as the Treasurer. But, as Denise said, we all like to do a little bit of everything.

Melissa
Thanks, Megan. And then last but not least, we have Dominica.

Dominic
Hi. So I'm Dominica. I'm the Administrative Coordinator of MPOC. And that's a really fancy title, but I mostly just answer emails. I sign them all as all of us but it's really, it's just me. So I was born on Treaty Six, so Edmonton, and my family moved to Tkaronto when I was like seven months old, so pretty much grew up here. I kind of went away for undergrad. So I went to Montreal, and did a Bachelor of Arts. And then I realised that I have no money. I need to come home to, in order to afford to go to grad school. So I went to U of T. Strangely enough it costs like $22,000, I don't know what I was thinking, but it's fine. But we're here now. And I joined the MPOC, and it's been really fun so far. 

Melissa
Thank you. And we are also missing the fourth member of MPOC, Chloe, I'm not sure if somebody wants to kind of give a brief overview of Chloe's role.

Megan
Chloe is our Communications Coordinator. She, like all of us, has a hand in taking care of everything, running events, social media, as well. She's our Twitter goddess, since the rest of us do not use Twitter, and apparently, it's really important for discourse and getting our name out there. So we're really grateful that she has taken that on.

Denise
And she's a Montreal gal. 

Melissa
Well, thank you very much for the introduction. I am very excited to be chatting with you folks today. And the first thing that I kind of wanted to get some insight on, is you recently launched your own website, which is wonderful, and congratulations! It looks beautiful, and we will make sure to link it when we share on social media. But with the launch of your website also came the launch of your MPOSees campaign. And so I was wondering if any of you might be able to kind of chat about what that process was like, sort of describe what MPOSees even is and maybe just some of the things that you learned while you were conducting those interviews. 

Dominica
Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. So MPOSees, I guess it was conceived back in like March, April of 2020, so it's been almost a year in the making. But that's sort of when we had the first idea. But then the pandemic happened, and so there was a lot of stress, and it sort of got pushed. But then eventually, we were contacted by Armando Perla, who is an activist, a consultant, a curator, he's everything, he's amazing. And he spoke to us, and we really vibed and he had a lot to say, and so we thought it'd be a good idea to start MPOSees with him. Oh, and MPOSees is a conversation series that we have with other, I guess, more established museum professionals of colour, and sort of sort of just get their perspective on things, sort of talk a little bit about their work, their ideas of the future. And it's also an unpaid, well, currently, it's an unpaid, we cannot give honoraria right now, but the goal is that we do 'cause we don't want to have people talk about their experiences without being compensated for it, because it's also a lot of like emotional labour and stuff. But we had the conversation and it was really, really good. It was really long, which is why when you go over there, it’s in like six parts just because it's so long. And shortly after our first interview with Armando, he introduced us to a bunch of other really cool people. And we had this session, I don't remember exactly what it's called, but he invited a lot of other museum professionals, particularly those who think about like the ethical dilemmas of museums and stuff. And the topic of that discussion was on collecting, like, oral histories and supporting communities, particularly during the beginning of COVID-19. So we joined that conversation, we sort of took a lot from that, and like we were really reflective, and we sort of thought about, sort of the ethical implications of having people sort of revisit some of their traumas while working in museums and using those stories and, and such, which is why we think we should always be offering financial compensation. But we also thought about, like, how can we make it as comfortable as possible for them. And so we started rethinking the format. And so we would include in our policies, like, you know, you can like exit the interview, whenever, of course, you can redact anything you want to say, what else did we include? Oh, we started the beginning with a little bit of ramble, just to get them warmed up and comfortable with us. And I think we also made an effort to also share about ourselves as much as they're sharing about themselves, just so it's not like we're extracting information, it's more of like an equal discussion where everybody's sort of sharing. And we really, really appreciate all of our speakers’ like honesty. And I know they want to do that, because there's a lot to learn from their experiences on how museums can better work with communities, but also like how we, as minoritized museum workers, can also sort of think about our positions and how we can support each other and sort of look towards similar goals. But yeah, so that was sort of the beginning process. And since then, we also talked to Patty Arteaga from the Smithsonian, and Cheryl Blackman, the Director of Museum and Heritage of the City of Toronto. And we thought it would be a really quick turnaround, but it turns out that transcribing interviews is a really, really long process. And this is way before we discovered Otter, which has been a game changer for us. And it only costs $5, which I was like, wow. But it's been really, really helpful. And that's why we've been able to pump out Armando's and soon Patty's MPOSees a lot sooner. But yeah, a lot of things happened since then, which is why it's sort of been on the back burner, and why it's taken so long. But, yeah, I'm really excited that it's finally here. 

Melissa
It looks great. I haven't gotten the chance to read through all six parts yet, but I agree, even from, like, an external perspective, Armando just seems like such a cool person to have the privilege to know and work with. But yeah, that's really great. And it's good to hear that you have these policies when you were going into interviews too because I think that that's something that gets forgotten a lot, like emotional labour. But yeah, that's really great. 

Denise
I was just gonna say like, in terms of like the policies, and like rethinking about how we want to go about doing MPOSees, we're always still, kind of, thinking about how we want to make it a better environment for the users that we have these conversations with. And even now, you know, Patty Arteaga, our second speaker, she has a lot of experience with collecting these community stories and doing oral histories. And I mentioned it a lot, but like the concept of breaking bread at the beginning before, you know, having these conversations that might be traumatic, or like, you know, really emotionally laborious is really something that we're also considering and taking away from that interaction as well as that like, you know, really getting to know each other and really getting to, getting to be vulnerable and getting to like, you know, express the intent behind why we're having these conversations. And then after that relationship is established, you know, moving on into these more in-depth conversations that the interviews will be about. And like just going back about transcribing these interviews, I'm working on Patty's right now, trying to get that out. Like Dominica said, before we knew Otter, it was just really a process of like, listen, rewind, type, listen, rewind, type, so it's been a little bit slow, but as I'm like working through it now, I've been telling others, it's just amazing kind of remembering what such a, such a special space it is, when we get to talk with these professionals. And really, I don't know, have them be so candid with us about their experiences as racialized museum professionals, and yeah, there's laughter, there's like, there's a lot of laughter. In the transcriptions, you'll probably see like brackets, laughing, brackets, laughing everywhere you go. But yeah, it's just a really special space. And, and we're honoured and privileged to have these conversations. 

Megan
Yeah, just to zoom out a little bit, I think, we really saw this driving need for a project like this, because it's something that we were really looking for and missing, is mentorship and guidance. Because listeners of the podcast may not know, but the reason why we formed as a group is because people of colour, Black, Indigenous, and people of colour are extremely outnumbered in the museum field. And more than that, we're often very siloed in separate institutions. And so we found that we hadn't been able to connect with a lot of them. And, you know, I'm sure a lot of them are learning from each other, but it can be a very private sort of network, for obvious reasons. You know, there's a lot of mistrust when you've been hurt by institutions. And, you know, you want to protect yourself, which is totally reasonable. But then for us, you know, we really looked up to a few of these really amazing people of colour who are doing all this important work in terms of diversity and inclusion, and publishing papers, and creating all these innovative practices. And we, sort of, reached out to them directly, and we wanted to learn from them, and learn from their experiences, and hear from them personally. But we also wanted to share that with others who have not been able to reach out to them directly or be in our Museum Studies program, which is also, you know, a pretty exclusive place to be. So we hope that this interview series can reach other people who are feeling similarly isolated to how we were, and sort of further break down those walls in our sector.

Melissa
I think something that really stuck out to me from what you were just saying, Megan, is sort of the sense of like mistrust. And I'm wondering if we might be able to tease that apart a little bit, because as you said, a lot of listeners might not be super familiar with the mistrust that's created between museums as institutions and like racialized communities. So I'm wondering if we could maybe just chat about that a little bit, if anybody wants to share, like, what they understand that relationship to be? I don't know if that's a tough question, I'm sorry.

Megan
I just feel like there's so many different places you could start talking about it, like, do we go into the history of the museum as a colonial institution? We could trace that history for hours to the present. But yeah, basically, to sum it up, museums today, especially the really established ones that have great reputations, they're grounded in this history of colonialism and oppression, you know, from collecting “artifacts” [gestures making air quotes] from cultures and lands and peoples that have been colonized, to, you know, then representing those objects in ways that the people who created them would not want them represented. There's a lot of pain that's been caused by museums, and they've largely been run by, you know, upper class white folks, and now Black, Indigenous and people of colour have, for decades, been working in these institutions as well, and pushing to make changes from the inside. And we're trying to follow in the footsteps of those amazing people, but it's so hard to fight within those structures and keep fighting for your entire career. And so, yeah, a lot of people leave the sector because it's not easy to be in a place that doesn't advocate actively for parts of your identities and parts of other people's identities and, you know, actively tries to oppress it. And when you speak out for yourself, getting shut down by a room of people is really discouraging. So, yeah, these things happen in many subtle and overt ways, both, all the time. And yeah, I think there's just a general mistrust that's been built up within museums and outside of museums forever.

Denise
Yeah, and just to quickly, just to like, Megan was so eloquent and basically expressed it all. But to just add on really quickly to what you said, I think one of the most glaring instances of mistrust now, especially, but like, also happening towards, into the future as well, with museums, you know, trying to be these progressive, or like using these words like inclusion, because they know it's like hot topics right now is that, yeah, there, there are these museums that pump out the fact that they're all about, DEI. They're looking at things through an inclusion equity lens or framework, and that, that's a huge part of their values and their mission. And they say that, but when you dig further into the institution, it's just, you know, people higher up in these positions of decision-making, in the organization that are often white folks that are co-opting the work of the BIPOC employees that are actually doing the work of, of like, you know, reaching out to communities and, and creating programming that is for the community, "OF/BY/FOR ALL", right. But, but yeah, digging further into it, it's, it's those specific BIPOC people advocating for themselves and advocating for people that look like them. And one of the examples of that, I would say is, is the Brooklyn Museum. Melissa, we did a project together on the Brooklyn Museum, right, and like, you know, they frame themselves as being rich with diversity, you know, very into their community, and like, all that kind of stuff. But with everything that's been happening, and with, you know, the social media accounts that have been exposing people in their institutions, especially these higher-ups, upper management, for what it's actually like in the museum, you find out that the, the Director of the Brooklyn Museum has said that they've been talking to the DEI committee, but they actually haven't. They haven't reached out to them, you know what I mean? And just saying these things, not actually meaning them. And again, it being all of the work, and the advocacy and activism of the BIPOC people that work within these institutions.

Megan
I feel like everyone's feeling this mistrust more now, more than ever, especially after last summer. Everyone, all these companies, museums included, were scrambling to put out those Black Lives Matter statements. And it was like, if you do it too soon, and you actually have nothing to back up that statement, it's meaningless. And if you don't say anything, and, or you’re, you know, too little too late, it also means nothing. So really, we're seeing all these institutions, like Denise said, be exposed for really not having cared all along, and you can't just make that up on the spot. And now museums are trying to hire all these diverse people. But we've seen many activists say, like, you can't just bring people on board to your oppressive institution and expect them to do work for you and expect them to succeed. Because if you're bringing them into a toxic environment, and you haven't made any internal change, they're just gonna be really sad. And it's probably not going to work out the way you intend it to.

Melissa
That reminds me of what, Denise, you were mentioning about "That Museum in New York". For folks who are listening who might not know, there are often positions that should be given to certain communities and are often filled with white people. For example, there are often curatorships for, you know, African arts that could very well be filled by people of African descent, also same as like East Asian studies that could be filled by someone of East Asian descent. And a lot of the time what we see in museums is these roles being filled by white people. So I think that's also difficult and speaks to exactly what you were saying Megan, is it's complicated, like, 'cause you're trying to bring in diverse folks, but then you're tokenizing them by doing that, and bringing them into these awful environments. But then you're also saying that the same roles can be filled by white people. So it's kind of like what are we supposed to believe that the museum actually wants? You know?

Megan
Yeah, exactly.

Dominica
I was also just thinking of the Whitney.

Denise
Throwin' out New York.

Dominica
Sort of in response to folks calling them out, they wanted to put on an exhibition featuring Black artists, but they “acquired” all of these pieces through... I think it was like a charity, or some sort of fundraiser where the Black artists were raising money, I think, for frontline workers, I think, but it was fundraising, with their art. And so they had reduced their prices, and the Whitney, which has, oh, they have a lot of money, they acquired all of these works, and then they showcased it without asking for consent from the artists. And then, after the exhibition was finalised, they sent an email to them saying, "Oh, congratulations, your work is going to be featured in the Whitney" and they didn't pay them, they just said, "Hey, you get a free pass, because your art is here". And it's just really, really messed up. So you can definitely see that even though they were called out they continue... they didn't do any reflection. And they just continued on their merry way or their merry oppressive ways. And yeah, so it's one example of, in addition to the Brooklyn Museum, of how like museums continue to be these really, really not great places for BIPOC folks. So yeah, I just wanted to add that

Denise
On a personal example, since we're talking about New York, and all these institutions in New York. I like, really, last year, and even now ask Megan and Dominica, I'm always talking about like, New York, you know, it's exciting, whatever. But last year, I really wanted to do kind of like an internship at like the Brooklyn Museum, right. And so, you know, those like websites, those job search websites, like indeed.com, and whatever. I subscribed to, you know, like "museum internships" or "museum work in New York City", whatever. And so like, even now, I'm getting all of these notifications of like, there's this opportunity, this, there's this opportunity, there's this opportunity, but with like everything that's happened, especially over the summer, and like, again, these like social media accounts that are like really exposing these institutions for what they really are and how they operate. It's like, yeah, I'm getting these notifications, but me as a BIPOC person, I'm like, ooh, like, do I want to work there? Do I want to apply there? Ooh, not really, and then it's like a cycle, you know what I mean? Because it's like, you create this much mistrust. And then you still want BIPOC people to appear, like a diverse and inclusive and, you know, equitable, organisation, institution, whatever. And then you try to hire them, but they still don't trust you. And then there's a turnover rate, right? And so it's just like a vicious cycle of mistrust between these communities. Yeah, I guess that's all I have to say about that.

Megan
We're talking a lot about New York, but make no mistake, there are the same, if not worse, issues here in Canada. Speaking about the job market, oh, my God, I feel like it's so limited because of the factors that Denise said. But also a lot of museum positions in Ontario that are available are in these like small town museums. And like, do I feel safe or comfortable moving out to a small town and working for their community museum? Like no, not really.

Melissa
I also think like, accompanying that, a lot of those positions that are in small town museums, and the funding isn't worth the opportunity, which is a huge issue in museums overall. But when you couple that with the fact that the environment's also not comfortable to work in, like why would you even bother, which then limits the already limited job market even more by a million factors. And it's a tough time to be interested in entering the museum field. We can say that for sure. I think Denise, you mentioned something about social media accounts, and I think a couple of us have alluded to it. And Megan, you just mentioned that, you know, it's not just the States. So I was wondering if maybe we could chat about that a little bit. Like how are museums now being held accountable? Are they being held accountable? Or I guess, as we've mentioned, they are being held accountable, but perhaps not responding. I was also specifically thinking of #CMHRStopLying. So for folks who are listening, that is the Canadian Museum of Human Rights, they have been under some fire recently for less than ideal practices. If anybody wants to jump in and just shed some light on, especially now in such a digital world, what's different about being held accountable.

Denise
So I think #CMHRStopLying was a really good one to start off with, because just holding accountable a national museum with the name human rights, who when you further dig in to how they operate, and what it's like working for that institution. Just so awful, so awful, such awful experiences for BIPOC, LGBTQ2S+ people, again going back to like those, the mistrust, right? And instances of mistrust and oppression within museums as like employees, right? But what was really funny is that like, we called out the CMHR in the summer because they release this statement about like, Black Lives Matter. And you know, they did the simple like black tile thing. And out of that comment or whatever, correct me if I'm wrong Megan and Dominica, and we did call them out. And they came back at us with a defensive comment trying to correct something that we had said. But this was before #CMHRStopLying had really flourished and became much more known. So it was like, I don't know, like, again, stop lying. Anyway. But another example is Change the Museum, I think that one is more open to like the US. But there are people there that work in institutions across the US that use that platform to confess about some of the awful experiences they've had with like, management or whoever and their positions as, like, BIPOC individuals. And yeah, just not ideal situations for anyone. 

Megan
To give more context about what made the #CMHRStopLying story so huge is it's a relatively new museum. It's based in Winnipeg, and it's a Crown Corporation, which means it's directly funded by the federal government, which means that they have a lot of say, over the content within the museum and how its interpreted, which is a big issue. There are a lot of issues of censorship, in museums in general, and especially in this case, and even though you don't necessarily have federal agents coming in and saying "You can't do this, you can't do that". It's more of a general culture that's been passed down from leadership, and basically muzzles communities of colour. And as Denise said, also in this case, 2SLGBTQ stories, as well. And you can actually, not to plug our interview, but you can read more insight about the story from Armando Perla, who is one of the leaders of the movement. You can hear about the story more in his own words, but to talk more about social media, I know that it's been so, I think, revolutionary, and allowing people direct access to leadership. So you know, when the three leaders of #CMHRStopLying started speaking out, they weren't initially connected with each other. And it was through seeing each other's statements on social media that they connected and formed their own sort of coalition and banded together to form a united front against their oppressor, or their former oppressor. They're mostly not working there anymore, for obvious reasons. And even like, as we said, there's creating your own accounts. And then there's also even the power of the comments section, which again, Denise also mentioned that we were trying to utilize in saying, "Hey, we see the statement, what actions are you taking to backup these words?" And some institutions, like the CMHR responded, some didn't. You know, we commented on a ROM post and some random person was like, "Hey, stop bullying the ROM" and the ROM replied, "We value discourse, therefore, we do not consider MPOC's comment bullying, we appreciate their feedback". And that person replied, saying "This is ridiculous!" But I think seeing how institutions manage their comments section is even a big indicator as well. Like, if an institution deletes comments, which has happened, people will call them out and say, "Hey, you've been deleting comments that are calling you out." I think, yeah, social media has had a big hand in allowing this type of discourse to be public, and to be out there in the world permanently. 

Denise
And like touching a little bit on what Megan had said, like, even looking at us, and, you know, we started in February of last year -- it's almost been a year, yay, congrats! But we started in February of last year, we had like one in person event, and then after that, it was just like COVID-19 right? And this entire time we've been operating virtually and through like social media. But, again, the power of social media is like, despite the distance being able to connect with so many like-minded people and social media is how we've you know, connected with Armando. Armando found us on Instagram, right, as well as other people that we've invited to panels as well to have these conversations. And like, yes, it's all virtual, and, you know, we're apart but we're still together and we're still doing this work together in a sense. So social media has really allowed us, yeah, like Megan said, to like engage in this discourse. And I think, most importantly though, to feel that support, right. And to, again, like Armando is in Montreal. Another mentor of ours, Dulcina, she's in Baltimore, but the fact that we can like hop on to, like Instagram or whatever, and just like send a message to each other being like, "How are you? I hope you're okay," like, you know, "What have you been up to?" has really not only allowed us to do this work, but still feel like we have that community of people to help us do this work and to continue doing this work and to have energy meant to uplift each other, because it's not easy, right? 

Megan
Yeah, a lot goes down in the DM's. 

Dominica
Yeah, and like, as much as like the internet can be also like a colonial space, and a space for a lot of oppression, it also has these really cool opportunities where people can come together. And it's a real cool place for activism as well because of that. And also, speaking of our online events we hosted with Dulcina, or actually like, we also created an event called On Possible Futures. And it was about digital activism, specifically the intersections of BIPOC experiences and LGBTQ2S+  experiences. Oh, that's also a great place where you can check out more on #CMHRStopLying, because Armando and Thiane Diop, who is the one of the other leaders, spoke about it, and so a lot of the panelists talked about, like raising money, mutual aid and stuff. So being able to connect people for like tangible financial purposes is also like, like social media becomes a really, really good tool for that.

Melissa
I was just gonna say the On Possible Futures, correct me if I'm wrong, but there was also a speaker from like Australia?

Denise
Craig? Is that Craig Middleton? 

Melissa
Yeah.

Denise
Oh yeah, he was on the second On Possible Futures, the one about contemporary collecting.

Melissa
Gotcha. Okay. The reason that I brought him up was just that, like, if you were having an in person panel, the difficulty to get somebody from literally the other side of the world takes some organisation skill that is crazy. And also, you know, you guys have mentioned in the past, is you need to pay people for their time and getting to Canada from across the world is obviously a little bit more time. So I just, it's always impressive to me to see the folks that you are connecting with, and that are connecting with you, because it's like, it's not just U of T anymore. And I just think it's amazing. And I think that as negative as social media can be, like, it opens up something that we never could have imagined, however many years ago, like to just slide into somebody's DM's and say, "Hey, I love your work. Like maybe let's chat about it." I think that's just so cool. There's information about those panels on your website, right?

Megan
Yeah, we actually have a request form for our past events. So you can request a recording or a transcript of a video if you missed it. But yeah, we've been so lucky to have been put in contact and been contacted by such amazing, inspirational people. We're so lucky that so many people have just been so willing to help us. And part of what we're trying to do is to help those people and us pass on what we've been able to learn, and learn from more people and just create a bigger, more visible network in Canada. Yeah, so if anyone wants to reach out to us totally feel free.

Denise
We love people who reach out. On a more general note, because I know not everyone that's going to be listening to this is going to be in Museum Studies, you're all going to be from different subjects, whatever you're into, but if you're going to take any skill, or you know, whatever away from this, is that networking is so important, and finding the people that are going to support you and the work that you do, and the work that you're passionate about, and also share that passion is just so important. We've heard it from our mentors, we've heard it in the context of supporting each other when you experience anxiety and imposter syndrome. You know, when you feel you're not good enough, despite, you know how hard you worked and like all the success that you received. But yeah, it's crucial to find those people who will uplift you and support you in your endeavors. And when you do find those people, it just opens up a door of opportunities. And we've been so lucky to have found people that advocate for us and have opened up a lot of opportunities for us. 

Megan
It's really important because there's also a lot of resistance and doors in your face, so you need something to keep you going. 

Dominica
And like it's all about visibility, which is like why we named MPOSees, "MPO Sees", because it's like, we see you, like we appreciate you and we want like to listen to you. And yeah, we really love a bad pun. Sorry, you sort of have to hear really closely for the difference between MPOC, like our name, and MPOSees, which is the name of the series. 

Denise
And not just like we see you, but like we want other people to see you too, right. And the work that you do is so important, the work that you do may be taken for granted by the institutions that you work for, or like may not be deemed as... I don't know, not as important, but, you know what I mean? Like people, people need to be seeing the work that people like Armando Perla, Patty Arteaga, Cheryl Blackman, three people that we've interviewed so far, have been doing to open space for these more diverse voices, to create greater representation of these voices that aren't always at the forefront.

Melissa
I think that's important too, for folks who perhaps aren't as aware of what goes on in museums outside of the North American context. As we all know, from being in a Museum Studies Program, a lot of museum stuff is super Eurocentric, and not only Eurocentric, but super like, Canada specific or, you know, we are at University of Toronto, so we use a lot of Toronto museums as an example. And I don't know, I just think it opens up opportunity for people that may not be getting that from, I guess, their more "traditional" education or from even experience, you know. Obviously, none of us can travel right now, so it's not like we're going anywhere else in the world to experience stuff. So I think that by doing things like MPOSees, you're kind of opening a lot of people's eyes to what's out there, both good and bad, you know, some things that are happening around the world. And I think that's something that, like, us as viewers and supporters of MPOC really shouldn't take for granted. Because otherwise, we might not get to know anything about Armando Perla, or we might not get to know the inside scoop on his experience. So yeah, I don't know. I just think it's really cool what you're doing for, like for the community as well, like for people who are getting to read that. It's just opening up so much, I think for a lot of folks, especially museum folks. So I think what you do is great is what I'm saying basically in a nutshell.

Megan
Thank you so much.

Denise
Yeah, it's a, it's all learning for us too, right? We never come out here and are like, we're never out here like, "Yeah, we know, we know what we're doing." Well, we do, okay, be confident. But again, it's like we are still emerging museum professionals ourselves, right? Like, personally, for me, I would consider myself new to this sector, because less than two years ago, I was like off on another continent teaching English as a second language, right? So, you know, through MPOC, like, it's not just us being like, "Hey, we're an authoritative figure" or whatever, like, "We are BIPOC people who can speak on the BIPOC experience, and like y'all need to learn". It's, it's an opportunity for us to get the experiences and learning that we need as well. And just us sharing that with other people. 

Megan
Yeah, I think like academia, museums are really driven by the literature, the research, and we're trying to validate the lived experience, as Denise said. Because a lot of times that's discounted. And this is a recurring theme in the conversations we have with other museum professionals of colour, is that we were never trained in diversity leadership, but it's what we've had to take on because we won't stand for abuse anymore. So the experience is just, a lot of it just comes from the lived experience. And that's valid, and it's, should be valued. And is something that we can bring to the table. 

Dominica
And like, I won't speak for Megan and Denise, but like, when we started out, like I know, I wasn't like an expert, I'm still not an expert, obviously. But like, I was like, "I'm way in over my head, like, there's no way I could do this," but then you think back on your life, if you don't do it, it's really important, but like, who else is going to do it if you don't do it? And so you're like, "No, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna take it step by step. I'm going to learn. There's going to be like, a lot of mistakes", like, I've made a ton of mistakes already so far, but like, you'll learn from them and like the lived experience is a learning experience. 

Denise
I'm gonna agree completely with what Dominica said. And even now, like, yeah, I touched upon imposter syndrome earlier, but I think like a lot of this experience, because like Megan, and Dominica said, it's, you know, you get put into this work because you're, you're BIPOC. Kind of, you get just thrown into it, and you're like, "What qualifies me to speak on these things?" you know what I mean, besides the fact that I have lived experience, but because of that, you know, that imposter syndrome builds up and, and all of that, but, but again, it's valid, and you know, because we have each other, because we have this group that we can, you know, say like "Hey, don't think that way" or "Hey, like, you know, you're great, you're doing great, like the work that you do is fabulous," and I dunno, just like, just the fact that we have each other to support each other and to remind ourselves that like, this is a process and we're all learning. And that's fine if you don't feel like an expert right now, because you shouldn't feel like an expert, especially with DEI stuff. It's always, you're always looking for ways to better, right? There is never a definitive like "This is the standard. And this is how we're going to execute inclusion work and be equitable and be accessible", right? It's always, you're always striving for, to be greater. And that applies to us too, right? We're always striving to, to learn and become better at what we're doing and the imposter syndrome will come. But that's where we have each other to remind us that it's an experience of progress. 

Megan
Totally.

Melissa
That was so beautifully put. That was awesome. Well, unfortunately, we are getting close to time. So I kind of want to close out with one last question. I am going to put you on the spot with this one. So as we've talked about for the past hour, MPOC has been doing amazing things, and I'm kind of wondering what people can expect to see in the next little while from MPOC. I know we've got some MPOSees on the way.

Megan
Yeah, more event collaborations. I think pretty much everything we do is a collaboration, and that'll always be the same. So expect more, even if we're not hosting them, we're often involved in other things that we post about. And yeah, as we start to move away from U of T, and continue this work in the professional sphere, we're hoping to, I kind of alluded to this before, but establish a more visible network for museum professionals of colour, hopefully, across the country, you know, we'll see how quickly we get there. But we really just want other emerging museum professionals, like ourselves, to be able to benefit from the relationships that we've been able to develop and to share all the wisdom that's been shared with us and to make sure that people don't have quite as hard a time as we have had, and the people before us as well. 

Melissa
Amazing. Thank you so much, all of you for taking an hour to chat with me. I could chat with you for far more hours, so we might have to do this again. And as we close out, where can people find you? Where can they learn more stuff?

Denise
Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn.

Megan
We're on Instagram and Facebook @mpoc.uoft, or on Twitter at @mpoc_uoft. 

Denise
That's the underscore.

Megan
And we're on LinkedIn at Museum Professionals of Colour. And you can also catch our brand new website museumpoc.wordpress.com.

Melissa
Well, thank you all so much, this was a ton of fun. And thank you so much for taking the afternoon on Wednesday to chat with me. And yeah, I look forward to the next time that we get to chat. 

Megan
Yeah, thanks so much, Melissa. 

Denise
Thanks, Melissa. This has been great. 

Dominica
So much fun.

Melissa
Thank you. 

[Outro music plays]

Melissa
Thank you so very much to my lovely friends, Dominica, Denise and Megan for taking the time to chat with me today, and a special shout out to MPOC's fourth member Chloe. A big thank you to Sabrina for helping with sound and set up. And to the rest of The West Meeting Room team for supporting and guiding me through my first episode. Last but certainly not least, thank you so much to you, the listener, for tuning into the podcast this week. I hope you learned something new about museums that you can take to your own life, thinking critically about the actions of these institutions. As our listener, we'd love to hear from you. You can follow us on Instagram @HartHouseStories, or on Twitter @HHpodcasting. This episode, and all of our older ones, can be found on Soundcloud, at soundcloud.com/harthousestories. The intro and outro music you've heard in today's episode was produced by Dan Driscoll, and a big thank you again for being here. We'll see you next week on The West Meeting Room.