In The House: Ep 6 Good science with Daeria Lawson

Ezi

On today's episode, I have the great pleasure of introducing you to someone that I have known, loved and respected for a very long time. Daeria Lawson is a health researcher and PhD student at McMaster University. On this episode, Daeria, and I chat about her research, good science, what it is, and its impact on health outcomes. She also offers her perspective on what it means to move. Daeria is brilliant --  effervescently in fact. And it's my pleasure to present this conversation to you -- check it out. Hi, Daeria, I'm so happy to have you on the show. Let's jump right in it, tell the folks who you are and what it is that you do.

Daeria

So, I am a PhD student in the health research methodology program at McMaster And specifically, I'm in the clinical epidemiology stream. In terms of like a clinical area, my research interests include arthritis. So I have been working at the metrology department and Toronto Western hospital for a number of years not currently, but we still collaborate on research. And also as an extension of my work with my PhD supervisor, Lawrence Mbuagbaw. I'm also involved in a number of projects related to HIV research.  But my thesis specifically, my research focuses on epidemiology, but from the perspective of how other people conduct and report health research, so research on research or meta research, it's been called. So I'm just really all over the place.

Ezi

All over the place in good places, right? Like, those are pretty important issues to be studying. And so why -- what, first of all, actually, what is epidemiology? Generally, and you mentioned an area of epidemiology that you're in, right that you specifically explore. So maybe touch on what those two things are, and give us some context about that.

Daeria

Okay, so to answer your first question, epidemiology is a scientific field of study. And it's concerned with the determinants of health and disease and its population of interest. So, epidemiologists are interested in health outcomes, how and why illnesses occur, their distribution, the factors associated with different predispositions to diseases or some state of health, not necessarily just, you know, illness. So that's it in a nutshell, um, it's a very diverse field, and incorporates many interdisciplinary approaches and methodologies, including biostatistics, public health, health policy, and health services, research, health, economics, and so on. So it's very diverse, but the central aim is to develop and evaluate strategies to be able to prevent or manage illness and health problems.

Ezi

Cool. And so in terms of the area of epidemiology that you specifically explore, give us some more about that.

Daeria

eSo specifically, with regard to my PhD thesis research, so we're interested in looking at methodological studies. And it's a bit tricky, because there are different types of methodological studies that are specific to different fields of science, but from the scope of epidemiology or health research. And my work. Specifically, we define these studies as studies that describe or evaluate the design, conduct analysis or recording of other health research studies. So that's kind of where the meta term comes from. So these studies address various facets of health research. So for example, recruitment to reach research studies, or data collection techniques, differences in approaches to analyses, and reporting practices and publication bias, adherence to guidelines and so on. So it's really looking at how researchers do research. Maybe a more concrete example of a methodological study would be one that investigates the impact of study design factors on study outcomes and results. So, for example, how incorporating blinding when patients or physicians are blinded and a trial how that might impact the measured effect of that treatment at the end of the study. Another example might be studies that investigate spin and biases in reporting their study finding so differences between what's in the abstract versus what's in the full reports. And this is is useful to know because people rely on abstracts for summary of a given piece of research, for example. So methodological studies really are a cornerstone of high quality health research and that they help to identify and appropriate methods with a goal of providing evidence for better research practices. And as part of my work in this realm, so we are kind of just looking at looking at these studies broadly in the literature, so we're searching databases to identify these studies to get a better sense of the landscape since their diversity and scope is poorly understood. And that's for several reasons, just because there's no consensus on what they should be called. They're called many different names that also researchers reports have different criteria and different ways of reporting these studies. And obviously, because there's so many different names attached to these, this group of research, it also hampers end users efforts to find the studies and database and obviously use them and apply that information to their own work or their own practice.

Ezi

Right. So, you know, in summary, you're looking at, first of all, you're doing studies about studies, right? To look at the quality of those, how those studies are set up how they're delivered. And then you know, that the impact of the diversity right on people who can actually then use it, and that's important, right, in the in the health context in the context of wellness, because there's so many decisions made, right, that affect our everyday lives based on the study. So if they're not good quality, then the impact on people's lives is tangible...

Daeria

Right, and just to clarify that we're not looking at quality, just because there are no standards for how they should be conducted and reported. So we're just looking at what is being done. We're not prescribing anything, it's just we want to kind of streamline reporting, and labeling of the study so that, you know, we can use them,

Ezi

understand them understand what we're actually looking at.

Daeria

Yeah. I clarify that because it's quality just means a different thing. And people can get very upset if you use that term. So yeah.

Ezi

Touchy? So okay, that's interesting. When you are talking about quality, then versus clarity, right, and maybe let's use clarity. Right? So what is then? What is the type of study that would look at quality versus what you're doing?

Daeria

Um, so. So one example would be, for example, there are, there are certain tools that are that exists to appraise quality. So for example, risk of bias or other quality indicators, but these tools have been developed for systematic reviews, for example, it's a type of study design and also for... Yeah, so that's one example. So there are tools that have been developed over, you know, very through rigorous processes and consensus based processes, to kind of compare studies and what is reported or how the conduct was carried out to be able to discern or give a critical appraisal of what constitutes low quality or maybe more higher risk of bias. So because there is no such standard, or you know, at present for this group of studies, we're not, it's impossible to evaluate quality in that sense, right.

Ezi

So you focus on clarity to say, what is the information being presented? How was it generated? Right, and here are some ways you can use it once you understand that this belongs in that category. So then, going to your opinion, right, because we've talked about not wanting to be the one who says what quality is, but in terms of your opinion, then in terms of, you know, the educational background that you have that that offers you a basis upon which to offer that opinion, what to you is good science, what would good science mean?

Daeria

Okay, so, I had a bit of an existential moment when I was reflecting on this, and I've had previous like, in depth discussions about this and some of my seminars and just from the lens of philosophy of science itself, it just can get really deep with this topic. So um, and it obviously good science can mean different things, depending on your specific realm, like what is good science in physics is very different to what's considered good science in Health Sciences. But from the perspective of Health Sciences, I think asking the right questions so that we can make correct-- as accurate as possible inferences about our study findings at the end is kind of part of good science. So, yeah, asking the appropriate questions, which, while also relying on existing evidence, so this is kind of that evidence based medicine piece, so just in an awareness of understanding of the available evidence on a given topic, and then using appropriate methods. So that, to come to a better understanding of that health phenomenon adventures that you're looked on, you know, evaluating, just so that people are not unnecessarily exposed to potential harms, because of a poorly thought through our design research. So yeah, I think it has to do with, you know, asking the right question, and also using appropriate methods to arrive at that -- arrive closer to an understanding.

Ezi

So clarity and purpose in the question, but also in the design.

Daeria

Right. And I think that good science should be accessible as well. And there's been a movement in the scientific community to have more open access research, both from the publishing perspective, so promoting researchers to publish an open access journals, but also for research to be accessible for, you know, let's say individuals who might not have access to the journal, through an institution to be able to access that published research so that they can use that information.

Ezi

So as we talked about accessibility, as we talk about things reaching, you know, groups that are traditionally marginalized, or groups that are not traditionally considered as part of the center, wherever that century, so the center of science, the center of Academy, in terms of black, indigenous and racialized people, how does good science or conversely, bad science, affect health outcomes.

Daeria

And also, I wanted to just add to the previous point is that good science, I believe, should be inclusive and open in terms of also respecting and incorporating, you know, those other forms of and sources of knowledge. So like, indigenous traditional sources of knowledge, just because it's easy to get lost when you're in working in these more consumed by these more quantitative science realms that, you know, you get lost in the western science as being superior. So I think, which tends to be more quantitative and analytical and objective, you know, focus. So I think, good science kind of also is open to different types of sources of knowledge. Unfortunately, there are many, I think, famous historical examples of this. Just controversial research in the past, how that's affected, trust and relationships between research participants, specifically, research participants of color, and the trust and relationships between them and researchers. And it's part of the reason why we have over this oversight that we do with, you know, research ethics boards to protect research participants just because of these past atrocities. So a famous example of bad science would be the Tuskegee study, which was conducted in Alabama in the 30s to the 70s. They enrolled poor black men with syphilis, who had already had limited access to health information. And the research participants were not informed about the objectives of the study. They were told, they were initially misled and intentionally misled, and they were told that they were being treated for bad blood. And the purpose of the study was to examine the natural course of the disease. But the issue was also that once a treatment became available, which was penicillin, it was never offered to the participants, which is unethical. And the study also went on for 40 years instead of the planned six months and over 100 people died due to syphyllis or complications.

Ezi

And so I mean, yeah, I mean, certainly not only what is it unethical. And when we say unethical as it's like, you know, grand term, but purely evil, like what an evil thing to do. And, and syphilis is no, no dainty disease, you know, it truly would be a painful way to die. Right. And even if you don't die, like the morbidities that are associated with that, yeah, our body stuff. And then also in terms of just, as we talked about a little bit earlier policy decisions, right, like, if science doesn't take into consideration certain groups, like outcomes of those studies are then used to make decisions about our social lives. So there are also impacts to look at there as well.

Daeria

Right, for sure, um, there's definitely detrimental impacts. And also, just, in general, there's just even now, like from what we've seen with COVID, for example, just the increased and disproportionate risks of in people of color, just in terms of the number of cases but also deaths. So it's kind of because of all of these structural barriers and kind of downstream effects of, first of all gaps in access to good education, and then the downstream barriers related to types of attainable jobs and working conditions, you know, income savings, which translates to other factors, like adequate housing, and then just all of those things kind of add up to just greater -- have added up to a great exposure to COVID and just because of all of those kind of systemic downstream effects.

Ezi

So in terms of the research that you do, right, in terms of methodological studies, how can that work, kind of maybe respond to some of these issues, or at least clear up, clear up the landscape of research in order for those issues to become even clearer?

Daeria

Right. Yeah. Well, I think like one example, that's also kind of been touched on a bit in the media is just data collection, for example. So we've seen that collecting data about race and ethnicity, for example, so that is important in this case, because we can then look at the impact of these, you know, socio demographic factors, can examine them, and then so that the public health resource, sorry, so that the public health response can then be adapted accordingly. So in looking at, so that's not necessarily that's just epidemiology, research, epidemiological studies, but methodological studies might evaluate how different data collection mechanisms or forms or how that can impact the types of conclusions that we, you know, come to -- the types of conclusions that can be made from different types of studies based on how a survey is worded to participants or how the form is structured, which might, you know, impact or impact how the types of data that's available for, you know, to, for us to be able to look at these trends and, you know, large data sets or aggregated data sets. Yeah, so,

Ezi

It helps create a narrative, right, a narrative of what is being explored and perhaps give you new options to explore if they're, if they, if gaps are seen or not even just gaps, but you know, areas for something that could be better or right, like, comes out of what has been...

Daeria

Exactly, yeah, and like missing data -- It's such a big issue in health research in general. So ignoring missing data, and formative missing data just exacerbates these issues by concealing trends that, you know, certain trends that might be very important.

Ezi

So on In the House, we have U of T folks come in. So I know we've said that you're currently a studying at McMaster, but you were once upon a time a U of T students.

Daeria

Yeah, so long ago...

Ezi

Time does fly -- So in terms of your experience at U of T, right? How did you U of To prepare you for what you're doing now? Have you always been, you know, touched into the health space -- tapped into the health while, also while you're at U of T? And perhaps I'm gonna as a big question, so we will take it apart, I promise you, but perhaps what are some of the things that you learned from U of T or didn't learn from U of T that you wish you did.

Daeria

So my, my bachelor's degree was in molecular biology. So it's a bit removed from what I do now. But my hands on experiences in the lab really prepared me more than anything for a career in research. And I got to work with an amazing researcher, Allison Fleming, who is renowned for her research on maternal behavior. And I got involved with her through the Research Opportunity Program at the time, which recruited undergraduates to work on summer or term projects, with different researchers in the Faculty of Science. So in the lab, I was, I was exposed to this, you know, really collaborative atmosphere. And it's really where my passion for research budded. And then that's also how I came to explore other options and eventually learned about epidemiology and yeah

Ezi

And here you are now: PhD, picture her with a cape flapping in the wind,

Daeria

Still a lowly trainee, coming along

Ezi

Chugging along, never lowly, never lowly -- only learning. So in terms of, you know, I hear you saying that Research Opportunity Program as a great platform for you to explore your interests and interests that you are now pursuing at a higher level. So what are some? So that's the positive, right? But what are some things that you wish you might have gotten at UofT that you perhaps didn't get that would have better prepared you to be where you are now?

Daeria

All right. Um, I would say, in thinking about this, it was not so much what I didn't learn, it's more as the just general approach to learning. That didn't always suit me. I found that the structure was of courses in general was very lecture based to obviously have your tutorials and labs here and there, but the courses that I enjoyed the most or got the most out of, were very applied. And as I mentioned, my lab experience throughout, so of course, there was that theoretical background, but the application ingrained concepts for me more than just, you know, go off and memorize this, this textbook and now regurgitate it back to me in writing. So what I really enjoy about my graduate program now is just, first of all, how collaborative it is, and especially among students too, which is key, you know, to have that sense of community and that everyone wants, you feel like you, you know, people want you to succeed. But also, just the approach -- I really like McMasters approach in general to teaching and learning. And we you know, there's this problem based PBL learning approach, which emphasizes hands on and discussion based approaches to learning and I really feel how it promotes the application of your critical thinking skills, as well as practicing how you communicate, which I feel I never, you know, you don't really, at least I didn't feel I had a lot of opportunities to hone that, especially in a lecture based style, kind of environment of learning.

Ezi

And I mean, you and I were talking a little bit earlier, before we actually started recording, there is a pre show folks. Kind of about, you know, I was looking at your paper, which is available on BMJ for folks who don't know, I'll plug it in the in the show notes. But just talking about how your paper is very readable, very accessible, right. And I feel like in the sciences a lot -- there isn't as much emphasis on communication. So it's very interesting that in your program that you learn and actively engage in a community kind of training around being able to communicate and be able to partner, right and being introduced interdisciplinary. And you know, I went to U of T too, we went as the same time, ayeeee. And, you know, I did both the sciences and the humanities. And so that was an advantage for me in the sense of being able to communicate those principles from the science to different audiences. So I can certainly appreciate what you're saying there around the lecture is important, but also making more spaces for the application and making more spaces for learning how to share that information that I've learned, which is also, as we see in learning styles, good for you as the learner to be able to teach that as well to other people, right?

Daeria

And also, in terms of just being able to, as a scientist, communicate your research to a broader audience is so important, as we have seen just how things can be spun and inflated or confused. And, you know, people. I attended this talk by a researcher at McMaster, and she gave some statistics about I'm not sure where there was a poll, basically, and just how a large majority of people outside of the scientific community just consider or see or see scientists as elitist. And just I think it's just partially communication there, so I think it's so key.

Ezi

Right? I think that's a really important point to bring up, especially now, as you're saying in this COVID period, because, you know, we can, you know, there's always the meme about like the person who is like the anti-vaxxer. Living in a backwards reality. But it is also very important to to note that, you know, that person might also feel excluded from the knowledge. So that elitist train that you're talking about that elitist plane, you know, this denial of evidence, yeah, could actually be a reaction to a social kind of exclusion.  I think that's a very pertinent point. And also as and you did mention, you know, the Tuskegee experiments, and that history of mistrust right, we also need to be aware that sometimes the rejection is also a rejection based on experience. Right. So it's not simply rejection, because these people are foolish..

Daeria

Exactly, yeah.

Ezi

So it's also a question for the scientific community to say, you know, why should they trust me? And how can I make them -- How can I invite them to do so not make them rather invite them to do so? Right. So thank you for raising that as well. You know, on this show, we have our principal question, our focus question, which is, what does it mean to you to live and to be well, so you're in the sciences, you're in the health arena. But we like, you know, everybody's take, their own spin on that question. And to come at it from their own intersection. So hit me with it, what's what's up for you?

Daeria

I was reflecting on this. And I found it the hardest to define. But for some reason, but I think wellness to me is about being at peace with yourself and where you are in your stage of life, career. Of course, acknowledging all your frustrations, some and learning and growing from those experiences. So also, for me, wellness is having a good support network of, you know, is very key and people that build you up, but don't just blindly support you as well, so also honestly tell you how it is whether it's your friends, your mentors, you know, your colleagues. And I guess since we are on the topic of health science, and just having access to, I think wellness is having access to trustworthy and evidence based information about health so that you are empowered to make the right choices for you about your own health. And, of course, all of those other common things like self care, and you know, yeah,

Ezi

You know, I know Daeria personally, so I know that I know when means she's self care, she means it that. And Daeria don't let nobody play with her time. So it's one of those it's one of those things I, you know, try to emulate about you in my own way for sure

Daeria

Aw...I think its just yeah, like self awareness. I consider myself pretty relatively on the introverted side. So it's just kind of understanding that about yourself and also helping others around you who care about you understand that, you know, sometimes you just need to shut your door and just be by yourself, and that's normal.

Ezi

To shut your door. Yes, I do know that one *chuckles*.

Ezi

Yeah, um, and you know, also in knowing you personally, I've also seen, you know, a lot of your journey and it's not always been a straight road. But you've always worked at it, right? Worked at it and to find for yourself like, this is the next step. This is the next step. And you set your mind to doing it and you've done it, right. You're you're on the path. You tried. You tried and so I would say to much success, right? Like you, if it didn't work the first time, you found another way to do it. So in terms of your advice, then for Black, Indigenous and Racialized people looking to get to where you are looking to get into health research, looking to even just, like follow their dreams and set a path for themselves, what would you, what would you advise?

Daeria

Right. Um, specifically for like, students who are interested, I would suggest finding programs that are collaborative and diverse. and, you know, diverse in, you know, different respects, but also, in terms of the student body diverse, like our program, specifically, McMaster it's diverse in terms of, there's just people from different walks of life and stages of their career who are enrolled in the programs, and it just makes for a more conducive learning environment, you just, you know, you're more exposed to different perspectives. And, and also, I think, one way to kind of help narrow down those options is speaking to students and faculty, to get a sense of the culture of, you know, a specific department you might be interested in working with. So faculty sure is a good first step. But I think it's very important to talk to students who will, often I think, will be the ones who will tell you more honestly, kind of things about those underlying factors, like a culture and how people work with each other and if it's a supportive type of environment. And it doesn't have to be anything official, either it can be through Twitter, or LinkedIn that you, you know, kind of instigate those connections. So when I think often times and from just talking to other students who are approached and myself, as an ambassador, for my program, like people, often students interested students often approach me to kind of get feedback on the culture and the program just in general, from a student perspective, and I think most students are happy to give you that feedback, and also being open to various opportunities. So for example, I got involved at the rheumatology department by first volunteering, applying as a volunteer at the University Health Network, just to get that in. You know, just, and I initially wanted to, for whatever reason, I don't even remember why I wanted to be placed in the dermatology department. I don't know, I guess I thought that would ...

Ezi

Because, you love skincare, girl!

Daeria

*laughs*Okay yeah,  and then I was placed in Rheumatology, I'm like, I don't even know what this word means. What is rheumatology? I don't want to, I don't know what this is. But actually, it ended up being an amazing kind of one of those unplanned but great outcomes, because I got to work with an amazing team. And it was one of those experiences that really propelled me to, you know, continue on the journey to towards grad school, and eventually, I'm enrolling and there was the work that I did there, and the individuals that I interacted with, kind of helped and mentored and supported me along that path as well. So just being open is what I'm trying to say, I guess, the other thing would be trying to find a mentor who has a track record of supporting people like you, so people from your background, whether academic, you know, someone who collaborates with different types of people and works in diverse teams, I think tells a lot about the, how supportive that might be as a mentor to you, and also paying it forward. So you know, once you do get to a position where you're a graduate student yourself or in whatever position, you find yourself to also mentor and support students, and to pay it forward in terms of, you know, all of those lessons learned, that might not necessarily be common knowledge, right? And also, in terms of mentorship, just because there's a certain, you know, discussion about being a first generation academic and the certain privileges that come along with that, you know, having parents or one parent, at least who's an academic, you know, is an advantage. So not, you know, students from minority backgrounds or certain racialized backgrounds might not have those same advantages for those, you know, same socio economic demographic reasons that we've talked about previously.

Ezi

Right. So being a first generation academic is, if that's you, understanding like, what that landscape is, right? And once you're there, then helping others who come behind That's a lot --  listen, folks are getting a lot of gems here firsthand gems from a first generation academic herself. So, you know, do your research, if you want to get into health research, be open to opportunities. You know, really look up those people who you're hoping to mentor you, kind of see the environment that they built around themselves, the type of people they've worked with, right, the diversity of people they've worked with. And then when you get there, give back, right? When you get there.

Daeria

Absolutely. I think a lot of times we think of mentorship, as you know, there's a senior in person, and then there's you, the student, the trainee, but I think it's very important to also, we undervalue the importance of also mentoring, you know, among, you know, students themselves. So whether it's, you know, a more senior student and undergraduate students, or I think that's also important, right?

Ezi

So mentorship is a continuum, right? There's always someone, right?

Daeria

And eventually those people are really the ones who are going to be your colleagues at the end of the day.

Ezi

Right. And I think that also touches back on your notion of what it means to live well, right, developing a community of people around you, who are good to you who are honest to you, right, as well, I mean, who really support you. But at least you're living that ethos, which is walking the talk, as it were. Um, so if folks want to get connected with you? What are some ways in which they can do that?

Daeria

Yeah, you can reach out to me on the Twitter. I'm a recent Twitter recruit, I guess, I don't know. LinkedIn. I'm very happy to connect, also by email. So yeah, I will share those with you and you're welcome to share that.

Ezi

So I'll also, add your paper entitled Reporting of Methodological Studies and Health Research: A Protocol for the Development of the Methodological Study Reporting Checklist, also known as --hey, folks, wait for it now: Mystic. I love it. *chuckles*

Ezi

I love it if ever, I'm gonna read, you got me with the faux magic, I'm telling you, you already know me. But it's not faux magic, it's real magic -- it's real good work. So, I will link that in the show notes as well for folks to check out. Daeria, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me on the show. And as we say on this show, take good good care.

Daeria

Thank you so much for having me.

Ezi

Good science and good conversation. Two things that I really value. In this time of COVID-19 there is a heck of a lot of information always coming at us. One: it's important to check your sources. Make sure the information coming to you is reliable. And two: step away. Life is more than a headline. Go outside with a mask. But live it -- live. it.  Bye for now.