Deconstructing Shame

[intro music plays]

Lisa
Hello and welcome to The West Meeting Room.

Janine
We are broadcasting on CIUT 89.5 FM at Hart House hosted by Janine 

Lisa
and Lisa. And for this week's episode, we sit down for a roundtable discussion with our special guest Sarah Zaman to discuss deconstructing shame.

Janine
We each spoke about our own unique connection to the topic. 

Lisa
We also talk about experiencing shame and how to deal with it in the moment, as well as how to overcome its long-term effects.

Janine
We hope some of these discussions bring you relief, comfort, or just a knowledge that you are not alone in experiencing this even though shame can often feel isolating. Enjoy this week's episode of The West Meeting Room. To start, I'm going to introduce myself. My name is Janine. I'm a fourth year student at the University of Toronto studying Political Science and Diaspora and Transnational studies. This is my last semester. I have grown up my entire life in Jordan. And growing up in a Middle Eastern home, I think I saw shame as something that took over my life. And something that I felt was pervasive in different aspects of me, my goals. And it's something that I'm slowly unlearning today. Lisa, would you like to introduce yourself to everyone now?

Lisa
Hello, my name is Lisa. I'm a third year Commerce student, undergraduate Commerce student with a minor in Cinema Studies. For me, the topic of shame is one that is really sort of difficult to conceptualize and talk about, because I feel like it's very pervasive in many aspects of society. Both from my background, as a coming from a Nigerian household, but also in North American society. I think shame, shame is just a thing in a lot of societies. And it's sort of difficult to identify, how to identify when you're experiencing shame, and how it affects you. But I'm working on learning more about that and trying to, I guess, as Janine said, unlearn it. So I’ll pass this to Sarah.

Sarah
Hello, my name is Sarah. I am a third year student at the University of Toronto, currently completing my undergraduate degree in Global Health, Political Science and Human Geography. A mouthful to say. But I'm excited to be here, I just want to say that a little bit about myself in terms of my background, kind of growing up and how that relates to shame. I grew up as a first generation South Asian person, child, person, however you want to call it. And my so my parents immigrated to Canada, and we lived in the states for a bit, but mostly Canada. I was born in New York and so growing up, I think, in terms of shame, there's a really big contrast and dichotomy between how my parents handle shame and deal with shame in like a more traditional sense, and the way that they dealt with it growing up in a place like Bangladesh, that's like very conservative. They're very traditional. Whereas here, I obviously understand shame a little bit differently because of the Western ideals and Western understandings behind shame. And how kind of I dealt with that versus like, what like my friends, my Western friends say how to deal about shame and how they talked about it, versus how my parents taught me about shame and how I react to shame differently in the household and outside of it.

Janine
I'm really excited to jump right in. Um, so I think that I just want to kind of ask you both, where the understanding of shame was shaped in your life. Um, let's start with an early memory that you had where you felt, you felt that intense feeling, that visceral experience of shame, but didn't have the word to describe it. Maybe it could be as a child, maybe when you're older. Maybe it could have to do with understandings of femininity, or culture or religion or could be as simple as you know, when we're young, we're told to sit a certain way or act a certain way because other people will talk. So I would love to hear more about you know, what's the earliest memory of shame as for you both?

Lisa
Um, it's hard for me to pinpoint a single memory that I would call my earliest memory of shame. I just remember being younger, and I never wanted to sort of disappoint my mom. Like, I'd never wanted her, just sort of, I don't know if this happens to other people, or I don't know. But you know, when you do something and your parents give you that look, like you feel like the smallest thing, you just feel like you're like the scum of the earth but like worse. I never wanted to receive that look. Because it made me feel horrible about myself. And so I just remember, in general, just sort of tiptoeing around lots of things in my life, just so that I would never have to feel the shame associated with that look from my mom. But when I was younger, I didn't have the words for it. I didn't know that it was shame, I just knew that I didn't want to feel that way.

Janine
It's funny that you say disappointment, because that seems to be a theme in my life as well. I think just hearing you talk about it Lisa just reminded me of, you know, growing up, even as a child, for me growing up, it was a lot of extended family. So the concept of disappointment was not only limited to my household, it was limited to like, at least five or six other households of people that raised me really. And I think that, um, I always felt like there was, you know, something that I had to uphold in order to earn my way into the family or to stay in the family. What I mean by that is not that I was told I wasn't good enough, but that societal fear of you know, my family is my honor, my family is my everything. I want to, you know, earn my status in this family or I want to be the perfect daughter, the perfect sister to people, the perfect woman to other people. And this became a theme growing up. I feel like after the age of maybe six or seven when I was seeing, when I left that like toddler childhood almost phase and it seems young, but you know, when you're a child going from seven to 10 to 12 to 14, you go through so many changes. And there are so many things that I felt, you know, visceral feelings of embarrassment, feelings in my gut, just oh my god, you know, I have gained weight. What will this person think of me and my family? Oh my God, my clothes were not properly ironed. I am, you know, that I'm a disgrace. In some ways, people will think I'm not neat, or my family is not neat. I could see small experiences that now as an adult, I'm like, Wow, it makes sense. You know, like, I understand it. So everything you said, Lisa, particularly with my parents, I mean, what you said about your mom, I feel with my dad as well, of like, my dad had very specific standards for his children in the best of ways, you know. The way that we are to, you know, take care of ourselves, and how that reflects on to others is very important. So, I definitely feel that, that sometimes, it's subconscious, even from parents.

Sarah
I think it's really interesting that both of you brought up shame in kind of a larger sense. How it kind of impacts the entire, your entire family, whether that's extended people you live with, or just your immediate family. I actually had a pretty different experience with shame, I think in a familial sense. I think growing up, I was kind of taught, and maybe it's because my mother, like, God bless the woman. She's great. I love her. She's my mom. But I think there were a lot of moments growing up where it was just “safer” for us to kind of repress emotions versus express them. So I think this idea of shame, it was something that growing up I was taught, like, you have to deal with that yourself. Like, if you feel ashamed for something like that's, for lack of better words, that's a you problem. And you, like that shame only applies to you and you need to find a way to fix that shame and not let it impact the way you see, like it's almost as if, when I think about all these familiar pressures, which I definitely felt, of course, I feel like it’s very common thing to feel. I think daughters also particularly have different forms of pressures for various numbers of reasons. But I think, when I think about the whole idea of like shame in a familial sense and those pressures, for me, when I think of that, the first thing that comes to my mind is kind of what happens before it reaches other people. And so if, for example, Janine was saying, oh, like, your clothes are neat, your room isn't neat, like, You don't look proper. It's almost as if that were to happen, I would be forced to deal with it before I was allowed to, like, be open about it. So when I think of it in that way, it's very much like, it was a battle within myself that I needed to figure, I need to deal with it before other people could say anything about it, if that makes sense. 

Janine
Wow. I just want to say that you just encapsulated so much what I thought about like, just growing up with like, it's a me problem. That's, that's so true. It was, you feel it, you internalize it, as you know something that you are dealing with, and something that is inherently your fault. And even when you don't understand the concept of responsibility, you understand the concept of, you know “being proper”. You know, what will people think? Being a good person, understanding that there are certain protocols to follow. You know, even when I would sit at the dinner table, I remember very clearly, there's a certain way to eat, there's a certain way to do things, and there's certain way to exist almost. So Lisa, I'm really curious with you as well. Did you also feel that sense as a child of it's a me problem? Or did you think of it as everyone else's, you know, problem? Or it was other people targeting you?

Lisa
Um, yeah, that's a very interesting way to look at it. That it's a me problem. I think the answers for me is yes and no. Um, because when I think of shame from a familial point of view, I spent a lot of time thinking that it was a me problem. I remember distinctly, one time something had happened. I had, like, gotten into an argument with my mom. And I went to school the next day and I said to my friends, I was like, do you think I have dysfunctional thinking? Because that had been something that had been like a phrase that had been thrown at me in the conversation. And I felt like I fully internalized that, and I fully thought that it was like, I was just not thinking straight, and like, there was something wrong with me. And so when you talk about, Sarah, when you talk about like, having to deal with it before it gets out, for me that's like a very visceral feeling of like, when something happens, or when I feel that way, I'm like, I need to fix this thing that I did that caused me to feel the shame before it becomes like a bigger deal than it already is. But on the flip side, I feel like okay, this is gonna sound so wack. But, as a child, I watched a lot of Barbie movies, and I read a lot of books, and I'm gonna make the connection. But the connection was a lot of Barbie movies are about like, believing in yourself, trusting yourself. And a lot of the books that I read were around those similar themes. So as much as I felt the difficulty of internalizing shame and blaming myself, on the other hand, I also had like Barbie in my ear telling me that I have to love myself and that it's okay to be me. So it was always like this fight within myself of like, do I like allow myself to internalize the shame and feel like it's a me problem? Or do I fight back and say, No, it's not a me problem. It's a you problem. And I feel like even to this day, I still kind of ride that fine line of like, now it's no longer a Barbie. It's more like other like, people that I meet in life or YouTubers that I watch, but I still have that struggle of like, when like, is it me? Or is it them?

Janine
Wow. For me, it was Bratz. But yeah, similar. No, I never thought of it that way actually. That the idols you have growing up or the movies you watch and things that you,  you know, immerse yourself in really make a difference growing up. Because for me when I would watch those movies, it would feel less I should believe in myself and more of why am I not that? You know, why am I not them? I don't look like that. I don't talk like that. It seems like, I definitely feel like they sell this to children as like this perfect life of, you know, this woman like, it's like, you know, the typical like, not even just Ken and Barbie, just even Disney Princesses, you know. They're always beautiful and everything just magically happens and you know, there are no problems and you meet your prince charming all these things that we’re fed. I think for me, growing up, I reject so deeply because I think those brought me shame. I felt, you know that my honor, my worth came from, you know, finding a “prince charming” or living that like lavish life that I'd see with people on TV and different shows and movies I watched and it really, you know, I had to take a good look at it growing up and realized, you know, that's not real life. And that's not where my worth or my honor comes from. And to me, like, honor and shame are very much, it's a dichotomy, right? Like, my honor is someone else's shame. My shame is someone else's honor. And it's so, really hard cycle to be honest. And I'm curious, Sarah, did you feel a similar way? With, you know, cartoon characters or things that you grew up with? Do you feel like they gave you that sense of confidence of, you know, I'm rejecting what is being told to me and my surroundings, and I'm choosing to just know, be a child, be rambunctious, be confident, you know? Did you experience that?

Sarah
I just want to, echo what Janine said. Like, you said very eloquently, you said what needed to be said. I definitely agree with a lot of what Lisa said. And there was actually one thing that Janine said, just before you Lisa that, it really resonated with me. It was this idea that humour is used to deflect those comments and those things. And so to be, I'm going to be super honest, I don't really feel shame. Like I haven't felt shame in a really long time. And I think a big reason for that is because I used humour and comedy to deflect a lot of that. So shameless plug here, haha, shameless. I do stand-up comedy. And I think that has been a really great outlet for me to talk about things that would, before that point in my life made me feel maybe embarrassed or ashamed or taboo things to talk about. And I was like, you know what, full frontal. Let me just like, get on stage and just talk about it and maybe a couple of people will relate. I can make a funny story out of it, I could have a good time talking about it. And so ever since I was able to find an outlet, I think, least I think the original question was something along the lines of how do you deal with those comments, and like the potential of shame and embarrassment and stuff being built up from that? I dealt with it using humour. I dealt with it by never really taking anything too seriously. 

So I think that there's a line, there's a very thin line that you tread with that. It's like, yeah, sure, use humour as a way to like cope with it, use humour as a way for you to kind of deflect that shame so you don't internalize it. But it's also, don't use that humour to hide the way you actually feel about things. Cause I think something that's super important is, if someone says something to you that you didn't like, you're allowed to be upset about it. You're allowed to have it affect you and affect the way you think about yourself. But only in that moment, right. It shouldn't affect you in the long run. Lisa summed it up really well like, or Janine also said it as well. But like these people, what they say is, in fact, its opinion. And so I think as humans, we're obviously going to have emotions and complex things that impact the way we deal with situations. But it's also really important to understand that things like humour, or things like not taking things too seriously or acting facetiously in situations shouldn't, what's the word, it shouldn't clog or block the way you feel. And I feel like that's something that I've had a really hard time dealing with. Like I think I use a lot of like self-deprecating humour and stuff. Because I don't necessarily feel shameful for like, talking smack about myself. I don't know I can swear here. I'm just gonna keep it clean for the family. But like saying nice things about myself. And it's just like a really thin line where to some degree, I definitely have internalized some of that. But I've definitely taken what people have said about me and turn it into such big like, such a big joke that I now start to think bad things about myself because it's like, haha, so funny, everyone laughs at it when I talk about it. But it's also important to realize like to some degree, making it a joke has helped me not internalize something. So very, very thin line that you have to try and like, it's I think all about finding that balance. I think Lisa kind of brought a balance. This idea of like, you're the only one living with yourself. So it doesn't matter if other people laugh at these jokes. It's are you laughing at them? And are you crying inside? Because it’s a joke. To put it very clearly.

Janine
I just want to give you, all you podcast listeners, some applause because that was amazing. And I completely agree with everything you said. Well, you can't give us a shameless plug and not tell us more about your comedy. The people want to hear more about it Sarah tell us, so now I'm really curious. So what kind of material are you working on? And how have you incorporated some of what we're talking about in your actual shows?

Sarah
Yeah, for sure. Oh, my God. Yes. I will totally market myself. Follow me on Instagram. No I’m kidding. But I think yeah, humour has been, or stand-up comedy in particular has been such an amazing experience. I think I'm very lucky to have found it when I did. I found it in 10th grade. And I don't know about y'all, but 10th grade, like she was not the cutest time. There was a lot of flying emotions in 10th grade. And I think 10th grade was also a time. How Will old are we in 10th grade, like 15, 16? That's like prime teenagerism, like, but I think like - a bit more about my comedy, I talk a lot about, a lot of it is just anecdotal experiences. And I've talked a lot about kind of experiences that I've had, that I think are generally somewhat taboo for a girl to talk about. Like I've talked about, like going out and partying and like, sorry, mom, but like drinking and how like those types of experiences and like, a lot of, it's a little bit more aggressive and somewhat vulgar. And I think that's not really the good “image” of the perfect immigrant daughter and like, what will people think? And so I think I was very lucky to be in a space where I had enough confidence in who I am, although none of it was unprecedented. Like, there was no reason I had the confidence of a teenage white boy, like, I did not need that confidence. Like, where did that come from? Who knows. But it was something that like, I'm very fortunate, very blessed to have had found so early on, and been able to turn it into something that yes, has helped me. And definitely helped me kind of come to terms with like, these experiences. Like there's no such thing as a normal experience. 

I started this, like, I'm trying to think of an example that's like, kind of appropriate to talk about here. A lot of them are not, but like, like, oh, like I talk a lot about kind of how my gen, like our generation, and like my sister's generation, she was born in 2011. So talk about the differences between those generations. And I'm like, this girl knows how to work an iPad better than me, that's freaky. And like, stuff like that. And I'm like, I like kind of say things, how it is like, or how I've experienced them. And it's definitely obviously helped me kind of come to terms with understanding these things better, and kind of presented in like a story format, where it's easier to digest. But there's been instances where I've like done a couple of shows, and people came up to me afterwards and like Sarah, that one experience that you had, that was so funny, but it's also like, that's so true. Like, I also like bled through my pants and my period and a guy like that. That was a wack story. I bled through my pants. I was on my period, bled through my pants and like trying to clean the blood out of these pants and some dude walked in and he saw me like pantless in the bathroom. [laughs] Super sad story. Like that was something that people had related to, maybe not that far, but people were like, yes, it's so like, embarrassing and like kind of shameful for me to bleed through my pants on my period. It's like, no, it's not girl. Like, you get, like we all get our period. And it's all something we'd like, ther’s many like hundreds of 1000s of millions of people deal with it. So I don't know why we find so much shame within that. And so I think my stand-up comedy has been a really nice way for me to kind of come to terms with those things on my own. Be like, yes, it's funny and relatable. And it's fine that happened. But also like for other people, like they're also able to find humour in it. And all I can hope is that they like feel a little less ashamed when it comes to that stuff.

Janine
It's, I just love your approach, because you're taking something that a lot of people would see as like, you know, debilitatingly embarrassing, and you made it funny. And you, it's a funny memory and it's material. And I want to know, Lisa, do you kind of look at humour the same way? Or what's been your way of dealing with a lot of comments and what people say?

Lisa
Yeah, I definitely agree with what both you Janine and Sarah were saying about humour. My humour is, I just joke about if, if anything bad happens or anything traumatizing happens, I turn it into a joke. Sometimes through deeply inappropriate language, like I should not be joking about this very traumatizing thing. [laughs] Sarah's laughing because she knows some of the stuff that I say. But like, yeah, I think, I don't like do stand up or anything. But just like within my daily life, with like, the people that I interact with on a regular basis, I just joke about everything. And I think it helps, it definitely helps. And going back to sort of what you said, Sarah, about talking, talking and sharing your experiences, and then having people say, oh, I had the same experience, or I felt that, that's sort of what I try to do when I make it a joke. So when I sort of like, if it's difficult to talk about it, and feel the full weight of the emotion, joke about it instead. And then other people are then able to share their experiences, laugh, feel comfortable, and also sort of knowing that if there's something shameful happens, or if I feel shame about something, I know that if I joke about it, it's sort of like if you expose yourself to something a lot, it's just the power, it loses its power, right? 

So I consistently, I used to do this thing in high school, going back to the topic of periods. I know that like in general, like societally people don't like it when you talk about your period. But I'm like, this thing happens to me every single month, and I can't not talk about it. Because when people, when you have a cold, when you have a headache, you know, like you say I don't feel well, I have a headache, I have a cold. And like every month, my period just happens. And I'm like debilitated for a couple of days. And so I just found that just sort of hammering down on that topic and sort of talking about it consistently, joking about it. It made the power of the shame that I was supposed to be feeling, society-wise anyways, go away. So joking is really helpful. But sort of like Sarah said, you don't want to take it too far. Because you want to realize that, like you still have emotions about that situation underneath. And so you sort of have to realize when you're joking, and then when it's no longer a joke, and it's, you need to actually deal with like the way that you're feeling inside. So yeah, it's sort of like that give and take. But I also wanted to actually touch on something earlier, about like dealing with shame and talking to people about it. So I found that like to help me, I talked to my friends about basically everything. And that's like, mostly where the joking comes in. But like, we would talk about anything that we felt we were ashamed about. And it was helpful to sort of have people who, when we shared our experiences, I realized, okay, I'm not the only one feeling this, I'm not the only one going through this. And that helps me realize that it's really just, it's not a big deal. It's not the end of the world. So yeah, I think sort of the joking and the people are connected, right? Because you can't sort of joke by yourself. But yeah, um, so I guess my next question would be, how do you sort of deal with shame when you are in the moment experiencing it, but then also after? How do you, how do you deal with it?

Janine
Um, for me, I think first of all, everything that Sarah said really resonated with me. Because I think that if you ask me 5, 10 years ago, versus today, the answer be very different. I think that I used to antagonize a lot of people that would, you know, comment on my appearance or, you know, project their own insecurities onto mine. But I think I also had to realize that, you know, we to have to extend that grace to, you know, aunties or to other people that you love in your community commenting on you or your achievements or who you are, is really a projection of how they see themselves or what they've been taught reproduced onto you. So I think that when I feel it, now I remember to, you know, breathe, and really think critically about what's being said, and evaluate whether it's a fact, or if it's an opinion, and I think that's really saved me. Because before, I would assume all these things that were said to me were facts. I never stopped for a second and questioned whether they were opinions or facts, I just truly assumed that they must know what they're saying, they're older, and this is right. And I have to look like this because it's, it looks better, or I have to talk like this. I think as a child, I've always been someone who's very assertive in the way that I speak in the sense that I am not that sort of submissive type of woman. When I'm around people I love to, you know, make my opinion clear, while respecting other people's opinion. I think that was seen as masculine to a lot of people. And so there's a lot of unlearning. 

So that feeling of shame I believe is, I don't think, I think shame is the outcome. But I think things like embarrassment, things like anger, things like frustration are the immediate reactions that your body takes. And so when I feel that feeling in my gut, and it goes up my chest, and it flares up, and that embarrassment of being singled out, of how dare someone just like, comment about my weight gain during a very difficult time in my life? How could someone say that I didn't do well in school when I was doing two jobs at the same time, or they don't know what I'm going through, they don't see the other side. But at the end of the day, you know, when people project their own insecurities onto you, I think, just stay, you know, calm. Really think about what's being said, remind yourself that, you know, it's an opinion, it's not reality, and just, you know, think about your own inner voice and what you think of yourself and your own standards of yourself. So to answer your question, Lisa, for me, the immediate reaction of the feelings after are so connected, because, you know, you can't blame yourself for having a reaction because it's your body physically reacting to something being said, You can't sit and tell yourself that, you know, how could this have been said to me, I don't know how to deal with it. Because it's already been said, right? The moment’s already gone. So it's about how you react to it, react with kindness, react with grace. Sometimes when people tell me that I've gained weight, I'll react with yeah, I'm gonna gain more weight, actually. I'm planning like, like, it's almost like having this like humour to it. And it leaves you in the cycle of confidence, because people in front of you don't know how to react to that. So it's taking shame, taking ownership of that, and refusing for you to be shamed in that way. More so, you know, say that this is a moment that's been subjected onto me, this is how I'm going to deal with it. I'm curious about what your experiences have been for both of you. So I'd love to learn more.

Lisa
Um, yeah, I think for me, um, something you said Janine that really resonated with me was realizing that when people try to make you feel shame, they're projecting their insecurities onto you, and sort of distinguishing what is someone's opinion and what is fact. So for me, it's been something that I really need to focus on. I think in the moment when something happens, and I feel shame, I react usually with defiance, because similar to you, Janine, I don't like, I don't really do well with authority figures. And I don't like being told what to think, or what to do, and so I sort of react. I'm very reactionary to it, I guess. And I sort of like, talk back and say, you know, you're wrong, or I don't believe this or whatever. And in the moment, it's that very, like, emotional, guttural reaction of "You don't get to say that about me or you don't get to tell that to me". But then when I go back, and like, time has passed or like, the next day or whatever, then I have to like sit with the feelings because me reacting is me reacting 'cause I've been hurt, right? It's because someone has touched something in me, or poked me in a place that hurts. So when I go back later on, I then have to work through the feelings. And that's when the things like feeling like it might be my fault or feeling like it's a me problem, that's when I deal with that. And so my way of dealing with that, and trying to make sure that it doesn't stick with me and stick with my psyche, is to realize that it's their opinion, and their opinion is irrelevant. And I like to say this thing, which, maybe it might come off as self-centered, but I had to realize at the end of the day that like, the only person that I have to live with every single day in my life is myself. So no matter where I go, no matter what I do, I'm always going to have to live with me 24-7. I'm stuck in my brain, awake or asleep, it's just me. And so I have to make sure that I make my brain a safe space for me. And that means not internalizing other people's opinions of me or other people's standards, and making sure that I'm happy with myself, and if I'm not, then I'll try to fix it. But if I'm happy with the decision that I've made, or I'm happy with the way that I am, then that's like the most important thing, and anything else is just like, it's just icing on the cake. You know?

Janine
We need that in a mug. I just wanted to add that in there. But, um, that was amazing, Lisa. Thank you so much for sharing that. I, what you just said, um, that you are the only person that's going to stay with yourself, day in and day out til, you know, we leave this earth, you have yourself and creating that safe space for inner dialogue, you know, cannot be emphasized enough, because I think that the harsher we are with ourselves, the easier things like embarrassment, shame, frustration, just ease into our system. So, well said, amazing, definitely important to hear. Um, so tethering what you just said with, you know, how you said you can't joke with yourself? I'm really curious, with your both of your experiences, because we talked a lot about shame inflicted by other people or provoked by other people. What about self-shaming? You know, tell me a bit about what that looks like. And I'm curious to see whether, or to understand, if your form of self-shaming is another, in some ways, worse. And it's obviously, you know, impacted by societal standards or things that you grew up being conditioned that it was right. Even if you refuse it categorically with other people, just within yourself, you believe it. So I just want to ask you both, what does shame, self-shame specifically look like? If it were a person, how would it look like?

Lisa
So I think this is a very interesting question. If my internal shame was a person, what would it look like? Um, it would honestly look like some of the people that I know in my life. And I think, I think it goes back to that thing of like, sort of internalizing other people's insecurities. Because what you said, Janine, of like how my shame is sort of based off of how I grew up and what I was conditioned to believe. So when I'm feeling the shame about these things, most of it is not from me. It's not. It's not because I don't think I'm good enough. It's because I think I'm not good enough because someone else told me that I'm not good enough. So yeah, it definitely looks like some of the people that I know. Um, but when I'm dealing with that self-shame, I think it just goes back to the thing of, I have to remember that it's not me who's speaking. It's so-and-so who's in my mind. He's like, a little like, person on my shoulder speaking into my ear. And so I just tried to, I tried to block that out. I do this thing a lot, where if I'm feeling, if I'm feeling an uncomfy emotion such as shame, I would just be like, no, we're not going to do that today. Like no, and I'll just like, shut it off. And I don't necessarily think this is the healthiest thing, because it then sort of tends to lead to things building up and me not really addressing things. But I think when I feel that shame is stopping my like functionality or stopping me from doing something that I know will be good for me, it's healthy. It's healthy to just tell myself, no, and just stop it because this is not you, and you need to be you and not someone else.

Janine
Wow. Yeah, I was about to say something like, mine would be like a mean teacher sitting behind the desk, and like marking everything I do wrong, everything I do, right in my life. But you guys said it so eloquently. And I think that self-shame is probably my worst enemy in my life, like internalized shame, and this, you know, goes through every single like, caveat, whether it's like gender, or feelings of shame as a woman, specifically feelings of shame with my body, feelings of shame as a student. You know, being at U of T, I think I felt a lot of shame in the beginning for feeling like I'm not performing like other people are, or I'm not at the caliber of some other people around me. I'm not good enough, this constantly repeats over and over and over my system of, you know, you are not good enough, that person is good enough. Even though to me, my dialogue with other people is very affirming. I love to see my friends thrive, I love to see people around me thrive. I want to help people, you know, with their goals, or just remind themselves to be kind to themselves. But sometimes it feels like this, this issue of I can tell other people to do it, but I can't stick to it myself, which we all know is hard. You know, it's hard to take your own advice sometimes. But I think one thing I'm actively working on is, as Lisa mentioned at the beginning of this conversation, make a safe space in your mind, be kind to yourself, forgive yourself, have your own standards. There's no one keeping score. I think that's an important thing to remember. And that score is so subjective, it means nothing. And I think I used to put so much of my worth into my grades and I want to be an overachiever. And I want to do this. Now, as someone who's graduating, I look back at my university life, and I'm just like thinking of, you know, the friends I made, thinking of the articles I wrote that I was really passionate about, or things that I did at Hart House, or things that I did with my student union. 

All these communities that I've been a part of that have made me feel fulfilled and made me feel like wow, like, I'm enjoying this. I'm feeling really passionate about this. So you create your own standard, right? And I think baby steps, right? Being self-critical is not something you can take away, just at once. But, you know, it's um, be kind to yourself I think is a, it's a simple but very important phrase. And, you know, when you internalize it, really reflect. Journaling is a good way for me to do that. I think back like, at the end of the day, I will question my own self. Question my thoughts, right? So I'll be like, Oh, I feel like really bad today because I got this mark, or I said something that I didn't mean that came across badly to other people. And I really have to critically reflect, you know, is this a big deal? Is this person still thinking about it 'cause I'm still thinking about it? Um, and is this something that has been, that I've grown up with, or something that other people are telling you this is what I genuinely, truly think. And when you clear out those thoughts, you can find the answer’s pretty simple. And reminding yourself that problems have solutions, right? And whatever, no matter what you do in your life, whatever “mistakes” that you make, there are ways to solve it, ways to make your situation better, or ways to make what you're going through better. And, and I truly believe that things pass. And it's important to not be critical with yourself of like, don't feel that shame or embarrassment, 'cause you didn't handle things as good as you thought you would at that time, 'cause you didn't know as much during that time. So as Lisa said in the beginning, make it a safe space, because this world is full of people who want to plant seeds in you, seeds of doubt in you, of, you know, you're not good enough or you're not worthy, or you don't look this good or you don't act this good. But have your own standard, right? I think it's a necessary reminder.

Sarah
I wholeheartedly agree with that. And, I think, definitely relate as a student, it's hard. It's hard, especially because things... people are trying so hard to make things as “normal” as they can be, and a part of that is like being productive and going to class and getting good grades and whatnot, but it's not the same. And I think it takes a lot of time to kind of compartmentalize and really conceptualize that and implement it into your life. And something Lisa said was, if you spend all of your time shaming and hating yourself, I think you said you can't become the person you want to be. I'm going to put my own little Sarah flair on that and say, if you spend all your time and energy shaming and hating yourself, there's no time left to love yourself. 

Janine
Wow, we need a round of applause for that. [laughter, *snaps*]

Sarah
If you said - yeah, girl, give me snaps, please, yes, profound! No, but it's serious. And I think that's definitely something that I've had to learn when it comes to dealing with shame. And I think, on the flip side, what I had to unlearn about shame is sometimes you really need to sit down and think, is it really that deep? And then you realize, girl, it's not that deep. Like that person commenting on your Instagram photos, saying those bad things about the way you look or whatever. It's not that deep, delete the message and move on with your life. Like, I think that's definitely something I've unlearned is that things can only affect you if you let them affect you. And obviously, way easier said than done. And it's definitely, like taken me like, I'm obviously not, like, I'm not even there yet. Like I'm slowly working towards it, and I think what both Lisa and Janine had said about, all the very articulate profound things that the both of you have said throughout this talk, I think have definitely given me ways to articulately describe all the feelings that I've been feeling. And I think, definitely take all that into account when I'm thinking about shame and insecurity and how I deal with that. So I just want to thank you both for like teaching me so much more about it. Like I've never had a sit-down conversation about it. It's like, this is great. You should all do, like everyone should do this with their friends on a Friday night. Like, talk about shame, let’s talk about your deepest fears or shame I think is a great Friday night activity.

Janine
I think I've unlearned that being productive is not, does not determine your worth. In the past year, being at home, it's so easy to blame yourself, you know, for not doing everything you want to do at the same time. And I think you can both relate to it as students, you feel like you have to be productive all the time, like a machine. And I feel, felt the shame of I'm not doing enough, I'm not doing enough. I am sitting at home all day, I have to be doing this, this, this and this. I have to be in a million clubs, I have to, you know, have a million internships, and I have to work and I have to do this, this, this, and this. And you feel a sense of shame, but really in the end, No, it's okay, if no one was productive this year. It's been a hard year, you know?

Lisa
Yeah. For me, I think, sort of what Sarah said. I don't think I've fully unlearned, I'm still in the process of unlearning. But what I would say is something that I'm working on is realizing that, at least for me, one of the best ways to deal with it when I feel shame, is so like I had said earlier, to shut it down, but also to figure out what it is about that situation that I'm feeling shameful about. Decide whether or not, like you said, if it's even a big deal, if it's even valid. And, if I do find something about it, find that it's something about myself that I don't like, I make a game plan as to how to fix it. So, if I find that I don't like that, I don't know, maybe I sleep too much. Then I'm like, why? Why do I sleep too much? And how can I stop? Or, I self sabotage. Why do I do this? And how can I stop? And I find that sort of having a mindset of getting rid of the trash if it's not valid. And then if it is a valid concern about, that I have about myself, how do I improve or get better? That makes me...that leaves less time for me to focus on hating myself and more time to focus on becoming who I want to be.

Janine
I have chills from that. That's... that's so important. And I... you're right, becoming who we're supposed to be and also being in the present. You know, like when something's said to us, or we feel something in a certain situation, that moment's gone, and it's... I think we forget, and I am totally one of those people that really doesn't live in the moment sometimes because I keep reliving that moment of embarrassment, of anger, of shame. Like, it just plays in my head over and over again. I'm wasting precious time, like you said, becoming the person I want to be. Particularly for me, the woman I want to be, and what I want to, what that means for me, and I just appreciate you both so much today. This has been so wonderful. I just want to kind of open up the floor for any, you know, closing remarks and let everyone know how they can follow you after this episode, and tell us about some upcoming projects.

Sarah
I'll go first. Lisa and I are like, gesturing at each other "Go, go go!"  Um, some closing remarks, ideas, I think - I think you can have, something interesting that just popped into my head as both of you were, kind of, wrapping things up was, to some degree, I think, not all shame needs to be unlearned. And that is, in itself a whole different, that's a whole different podcast episode. Meet us back here sometime soon to talk about the importance of shame. Because I think shame, to some degree, has kept people in check. I think there's some things that you should be ashamed about, but I digress. But I think all in all, I am just so grateful to have had the opportunity to speak to such lovely, intelligent women about this topic. This topic that is so important, and I think definitely impacts so many people, but like, it seems as though it's always something that's like gnawing at you on the inside. 

So it was really nice, just bring it to the forefront and be like, "Hey, this is something that we all feel. Let's talk about it. How do we deal with it? How does it make us feel?" and so on and so forth. So thank you for involving me in this chat. I loved chatting with you all, love to be a part of anything and everything. What else did you say? Oh, yes. How people can follow me, ooh. Um, you can follow me on Instagram @sarahbzaman That's my Instagram. Do I have any other platforms? I don't think so. LinkedIn, oh my god. Follow me on LinkedIn, I love LinkedIn. We're always here for good networking! Some projects that I'm working on. To be quite honest, it's been, obviously, very difficult to do projects. But I write an advice column for a magazine, so link in bio on Instagram! Ugh, I feel so dirty, trying to like plug me in like, projects. The magazine is Addicted Magazine. It's a lovely magazine based in Toronto. And follow me on that, submit questions, I'm your gal for all your advice needs. I may have some stand up shows coming up. The column is called Sarah's Two Sense. So definitely read up on that, send in some questions, would love to hear from all of you. Might have some stand up shows coming up soon, if you want a decent chuckle. Like, follow me on Instagram. I'll post all my updates there.

Janine
What about you, Lisa? I have to say just you know, before Lisa goes, that Lisa and I co- produced this episode, and Lisa is phenomenal. And this was her first episode on our podcast. Um, so you're gonna be hearing a lot more of her in the future.

Lisa
Thanks, Janine. Yeah, I guess closing remarks for me. Sort of to just to echo what you said Sarah, I think it was really a brilliant, like deeply affirming experience to talk about shame. And sort of just like, know, not that I didn’t know, but to be reminded that it's a thing that we all experience. And I'm not alone in that feeling. And then also to hear how you both, sort of, deal with it and what you've learned about it. There's definitely a lot of things that I'm going to take and try to implement in my life. So this was awesome. Thanks, Janine. And then in terms of where you can find me, you can find me on Instagram @lisastar1242 Upcoming projects...I do photography, and I'm working on, sort of, building a portfolio, and turning that into an Instagram account @focusbylisa. So if you follow my personal you will find out when the photography account gets launched. And then I'm also working on a podcast of my own. And that's in the works. So once again, follow me on Instagram for all the updates on like what I'm doing. But yeah, that's it for me. 

Janine
For me, I just want to say I am so lucky to have had this wonderful conversation with you both. I think it was really healing for me and was also really informative. I think I am in awe of how strong you both are when dealing with shame, and how resilient you are. But at the same time, the way that you, you know, turn it into humour, and the way that you take these experiences and make it part of your narrative and part of your story in a way that helps other people. Like you said Sarah, people that come to your show and see this, and Lisa, with your podcast. I can't wait to see the projects that you work on and seeing your photography as well. And, and the way that you guys take these rich experiences and make it your own. And I'm really inspired by you both. And I'm really excited to see what's coming in the future. For me, to all our listeners, I just want to say that, you know, shame is a really pervasive thing. And I'd encourage you to think about your own relationship with it because it might be affecting you in ways that you don't know. And you know, what you think of yourself is always the most important. So I just want to add a gentle reminder there. Be kind to yourself. And yeah, thank you both. I think we all need, like, a round of applause. So I guess everyone can unmute, and we can just, you know,

Lisa
Snaps all around. [*snaps]

Sarah
That was great!

Lisa
Thank you. 

Sarah 
I thoroughly enjoyed that. That was fun! Y'all are fun to talk to! 

Janine
Thank you so much, everyone. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of The West Meeting Room on CIUT 89.5 fm.

Lisa
We hope you were able to find something that resonates with you or something that you can take away and mull over for the next week.

Janine
We're here every Saturday at 7am and you can find us on our Hart House stories page on SoundCloud. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Instagram @HartHouseStories  and Twitter @HHpodcasting.  Thank you so much for listening. Take care of yourself and we'll be with you next week.