No Body/Mind Left Behind

[intro music plays]

Janine
Hello, and welcome to the West Meeting Room. We are broadcasting on CIUT 89.5 FM at Hart House. My name is Janine and for this week's episode, we'll be sharing a recording from November 19, 2020 of a panel discussion about Disability Justice titled No Body/Mind Left Behind. This event was a partnership between Hart House and the annual Diversity and Equity conference from U of T Sport and Rec and the Faculty of Kinesiology and Physical Education. My colleague Day Milman facilitated this conversation between U of T students, recent alumni and special guest, Alex Locust, where they explored how Disability Justice creates a framework for society that benefits everyone. More information about this event, and all of its panelists will be available in our show notes. We hope you enjoy this conversation as much as we did.

Day
Welcome, everybody tonight. My name is Day Milman. I am the manager of Learning and Community at Hart House, which is the community center of the University of Toronto. And I am so excited to be here as part of this event tonight. Thank you so much for joining us for what promises to be a rich intersectional conversation grounded in lived experiences of people with disabilities. Tonight we'll explore Disability Justice and how this lens can radically alter how we navigate the world and support each other on this journey. Tonight's conversation is a panel discussion between U of T students recent alumni and our special guest Alex Locust, also known as The Glamputee. So Alex is a certified rehabilitation counselor and a proud multiracial glamputee spreading the word about social justice one workshop at a time. Whether on the runway, or in a counseling session, Alex aspires to emulate the tenacity of the trailblazers before him and fiercely advocates for equity in all community spaces. Thank you, Alex, so much for coming tonight. And I'd also like to invite our panelists to introduce themselves tonight starting with Jheanelle Anderson.

Jheanelle
Thank you Day, I'm Jheanelle, I am a recent graduate, just completed my MSW at the Faculty of Social Work at U of T. I sit as a co-chair of the Disability Justice Network of Ontario, in Hamilton. Yeah, and I'm a research assistant with the Center for Research and Innovation for Black Survivors of Homicide Victims. Really excited to be here tonight and have this discussion, much needed discussion. Thank you.

Alisha
Hi, everyone. My name is Alisha Krishna, I use they them pronouns. I have lived experience with learning disabilities, mental illness, physical disability. So identifying as disabled is my identity. I'm a first year law student at U of T and also the treasurer of Students for Barrier Free Access, which is a levy funded group on the U of T campus. And we're run by and for disabled students, advocating for the removal of barriers in education. And I also am very excited for tonight.

Beau
Hi, all my name is Beau Hayward, pronouns are he and him. And I am part of the Diversity and Equity team as the Equity Initiative Student Lead, a student leader and I'm looking to work with the university and develop some accessibility around athletics and physical education. And very excited to have this conversation with Alex and the rest of the panelists.

Day
Thanks, everybody. Thanks so much for being here tonight and for sharing your energy and your experiences. So let's just start off with a question for Alex. In a previous conversation, you said to me that Disability Justice is like a north star in the work that you do. Maybe not everyone here is familiar with Disability Justice, and I'm wondering if you could just start off by giving us a bit of a grounding in what Disability Justice is and how it plays out in your life.

Alex
Absolutely. I am just so happy to be here. And after our conversation last week, I was just like, humming and so it's just always wonderful to be in conversation with other people with disabilities and so I'm really happy to share what Disability Justice means to me and explore that in relationship with each other. I also just want to quick pause and offer an invitation if the other panelists are interested in just offering an image description for those who are tuning in and don't have the ability to see us right now. I'm biracial, as Day mentioned, I've got my big curly mane back in a, in a little ponytail, very much in my pink paradise with my "She's All Fat" shirt that I'm very happy to be wearing. Lots of lots of scruff, it's been a long week. So just offering that really quickly, just so, you know, model access, right, that's a huge part of Disability Justice is that  collective access piece, but as a north star for me, you know, I came into an understanding or awareness of Disability Justice through Sins Invalid, in the Bay Area, Patty Burn as the director of Sins Invalid, the performing arts group of queer and trans, black and brown disabled people performing beautiful pieces about their bodies, their minds, their sexuality. And what I came to learn was that Disability Justice was an evolution of disability, civil rights, much like, you know, reproductive justice is an evolution of reproductive rights, you know, environmental justice, right, these frameworks that are acknowledging that, champions, changemakers, these advocates, came before us and really broke open a dialogue, broke open space, to acknowledge that, you know, in this case, disabled people were not being afforded the rights that they deserved. 

And then Disability Justice is acknowledging that rights are great, you know, as a bare minimum, but when we're thinking about what liberation feels like, what freedom feels like, we have to attend to the nuances within the community. You know, there are black and brown disabled people, there are queer disabled people, you know? As a as a black, queer, disabled person, I feel very seen by that. And, you know, it's about exploring the liberation of disabled people from an intersectional lens, and from one that's by led by the most impacted, right, so Patty Berne, Mia Mingus, LeRoy Moore, Sebastian Margaret, Eli Claire, the late Stacey Park, right, these amazing people came together and proposed these 10 Principles of Disability Justice, which are saying, you know, this is how we collectively, everybody, not just disabled people, you know, Disability Justice isn't just for disabled people, it's for everyone. That's, I think where that title really speaks to me, it's no body left behind. It's not about how you identify or what your label is. This is this is for all of our freedom.

Day
Yeah, absolutely. That's where the title for this conversation came in was. "No body, no mind left behind" was directly from the principles which were developed by Sins Invalid, which you can look up. And I'm wondering if we can ask some of the other panelists to sort of talk a little bit about their experience and how Disability Justice works in their lives.

Alisha
And I can go first, just image description, I'm in my bedroom in Toronto. I'm Indian, Canadian, I have long black hair, I'm wearing a hoodie. And I have glasses as well. Discovering Disability Justice, it's taken me a long time. So I've been with SBA for three years. And I've really been in this for three years. And it's never a finished process. Like I still go to events that we host and workshops and stuff, and I still always learn something about myself and the way I relate to people. But in terms of what I have learned, instead of what I have yet to learn, what I hold on to most is the fact that, you do as much as you can, and that's okay. They tell you this in law school a lot, where it's very high pressure and people have a lot of trouble with this and I understand it completely. But living as a disabled person, you actually just do what you can, and it turns out that disabled people are so good at negotiating these boundaries, that what you end up doing is amazing anyways, right? Just objectively speaking, so there's there's a lot to be said for taking care of yourself, taking care of others around you. Others like being able to ask for help when you need it. And looking at the long-term sustainability of things, I think that's really powerful, and I think that underpins a lot of what I try to do in my practice, but what I think everyone is attempting to do, at least in my law school Disability Justice circles.

Jheanelle
So, Disability Justice was quite a new concept for me. And, you know, it was like, Alex framed it, liberating, you know, engaging in that work. Prior to that, you know, I held on to a lot of internalized ableism, I am a black, immigrant and disabled woman. And, you know, a lot of my journey to Canada was traumatic, but also resulted in me having to lose a leg to come here, in a sense. And then, you know, over the years, I developed a chronic illness. And, you know, just drawing back to what Alisha said, just being able to not see yourself as a burden. Moving away from what society has, like, you know, ingrained in me growing up as a kid with disability, trying to, like, not look different, or trying to prove myself was always that constant struggle. Um, but, you know, learning and confronting that internalized ableism, you know, I, I should be valued, you know, we should move away from this deficit view of disability, because, like, it's the external factors that exacerbate how I like, I'm able to participate in society. So that's definitely one way. Disability Justice has, like, influenced me. 

And in my work, you know, I am a member and co-chair of the Advisory Committee for the Disability Justice Network of Ontario. And it's exactly what, as Alex described it, you know, Disability Justice is not just for disabled folks, it is for everyone. You know, everyone benefits from accommodation, everyone benefits from accessibility. It's not just for disabled people. Mutual aid, you know, what came from this Disability Justice movements, you know, care mongering, is a response to the shortages from COVID. You know, that mutual aid, again, disability, like ran by disabled folks. And just like another point, I'll just mention the site with COVID, it really did lay bare, all the disparities, all the inequities, but more so, you know, what disabled folks have been advocating for was always like, looked as at as a burden. Like, no, we can't do that, you know, you know, it factors in, because probably because they can't surveil employees as well. But it was always a barrier for institutions to implement these things. But then with COVID, you know, the capitalists are like, oh, or money. So, you know, these things that disabled folks have been advocating, and getting shut down for has now been implemented, like at the switch just like that. So, you know, these are things that are addressed, and can be addressed with Disability Justice. Thank you.

Beau
Thank you so much, Jheanelle, I think that you, you know, with remote education and remote work, coming to the forefront due to COVID. Luckily, I just started going back to school, so I was able to kind of get right into the swing of things that way. But definitely think that because people are isolated due to COVID, it brings attention to these things that disabled folks have been working towards for a long time. I'd like to ask Alex a question. Alex, we talked about this previously, but on your website, it said, you have a quote saying that "it's high time we leave disability awareness and etiquette conversations in the past." Moving forward, the Diversity and Equity Sports and Rec, we're looking to implement like a ski day, which I know we talked about last time and we're doing like a bocci team event and we're just trying to implement some new sporting initiatives, so intersectionality and leaving behind that disability awareness and etiquette, do you have any suggestions for us moving forward?

Alex
Yeah, you know, hearing that that quote of mine, again, I realized that that quote was kind of almost like a self-drag, you know, I used to, when I was doing the workshop years ago, have a section called, like, disability etiquette, or I would, you know, market what I was doing is like a disability awareness training, you know, so, I was a part of, you know, Jheanelle talked about internalized ableism, like, I was a part of that machine. And I think what I realized over time is like, why am I perpetuating this idea that disabled people are people that we should, like, become aware about? How are you unaware? What, I just want to know, like, how anybody can be in a state at this point in time, you know, and be like, I didn't know that disabled people existed, I didn't know that we needed access features. You know, I mean, in the US, the ADA was signed days after I was born. And so I'm like, I'm the ADA years old, you know,, when people say, "Oh, you know, this place is inaccessible, we're having a hard time" I'm like, times ticking, like, it's been three decades, you know, and, and that's just for legislation. 

So, when you hear people quote the census data or things that are like disabled people are like a quarter or a fifth of the population in the US, it's like, disability is such a normal, inherent part of the human experience, that to categorize the need to like become more inclusive as an awareness effort, or etiquette is so othering and it's so divorced from like, the reality of what's going on. It's just almost, it's kind of playing into this game that people can keep, like, saying. Well, I had no idea, you know, like, I need you to get an idea. I saw someone in the chat mentioned, Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha work, and Leah has, you know, that that conceptualization of like, that you need to figure it out, because you're going to become disabled someday, if you get old enough. The four of us, we're already at the party. You know, people are outside waiting in line, you know, we got the VIP passes. We're already in, we're in the booth, right? To your question, about moving past etiquette, past, awareness, like we, we just need to baseline, like, focus on efforts, like, you know, Alice Wong's accesses love campaign, like, everything should just be accessible period, that should be the bare minimum, we shouldn't be putting out events, we shouldn't be doing gatherings, we shouldn't be creating community spaces that are inaccessible anymore. It's just, it's, you know, unforgivable. 

And I think for people tuning in, if you are non-disabled, and you're looking to like, earn that ally-ship card, this is a time to be like, "Hey, friend, you're hosting a really cool party. I don't see any mention of access here" or like, "hey, this gathering looks really amazing. Can you put some access features in in the description?" How are you showing up for that, and then to elevate beyond just the bare minimum access, you know. Disability Justice invites us to lead by the most impacted. So if you're starting a space from scratch, are disabled people involved in the planning or their voices, you know, if you're doing community advisory boards, if you're having people contribute, if there are no disabled people present, it's very likely that you will not succeed at making it as accessible as it needs to be. And I just think that, you know, representation matters. 

You know, we talked about that last week, like not just at the beginning, but throughout the process. If you're doing a ski day, having disabled ski instructors, if you're, you know, in a fitness center having disabled personal trainers and coaches. I think they're really communicate to the people you're inviting into this space. It's not just this like you know, little feather in your cap that you're like, Look, we did it, like "wink", we got we got the logo or you know, it's like, no, we will not survive as a community unless we integrate the lived experiences of the people that we're trying to reach out to  and last piece about, you know, that Leah inspired me, in that piece, they have a piece,  like Surviving the Trumpocalypse and like Wild Disability Justice Dreams, they talk about relationship building with the disability community, right. And so, you know, Beau, you're embarking on these really amazing opportunities where you are a disabled person leading that. And I think that that can communicate to other disabled people that that might be a more trustworthy opportunity than, you know, an institution or an organization, all of a sudden being like, we're doing a Disabled Sports Day. And I'm like, I've never heard of you, I don't see any disabled people involved, you know, and then they do everything they're supposed to. And disabled people don't show up. And they're like, what's that about? And, you know, it's like, we don't trust you, even like you haven't earned that sense. So it's like, this is a years long process. And I think people want overnight results. And that's just not how it works with people who've been harmed routinely and systemically by institutions.

Alisha
I also just want to add something to what Alex, you were saying before about, about everyone eventually becoming disabled. I think awareness of disabled people is premised on this idea that non-disabled people can do everything all the time, which is not true. What you were talking about accommodations being for everybody, I think that's fundamentally true. Because in this world of capitalism, and all the productivity requirements, and things like that, the requirements that are required of anybody are ridiculous half the time. Case in point, most of my childhood was spent sitting in a desk for eight hours. Who decided children would be fine sitting in a room for eight hours all day for years on end? right like that, that makes no sense to me now, and I probably would have asked for an accommodation to like, move around, or switch classrooms or something like that. But for any child, it's the same story. So it's not like, my disability is something to be aware about it's just that the entire situation is ridiculous. And I think understanding that lets you see accommodations, both asking for them and implementing them, in a different light, for instance, by asking them I mean, some people don't feel like they can ask for accommodations, like they're, they're burdening people or like, asking for too much, but you are actually entitled to that, like, both legally and as a person. So yeah, that's what I wanted to add in there.

Alex
You know, Alisha, you're, you're really highlighting the, the social model, right? The disabling features of society, it's so easy to focus on like a physical impairment, right? Or something visible even on non-apparent, right, we're talking about chronic illness and mental health disabilities learning disabilities. But when you focus on that impairment, you're like, individualizing, you know, when other people focus on these things, you're individualizing it and so I hear what you're saying can feel like, I, Alex, I'm asking for too much. Right? Or like in the USA, ADA is phrased as like a lot of like reasonable accommodation was just shitty, right? Why are there unreasonable accommodation? And so to flip that script, and to say, how is this society creating these inaccessible experiences? Again, when we look at the intersection of these things, you know, TL Lewis has done beautiful work around how racism, you know, anti-blackness can create a sense of disability, right? 

And so if we think about like, intelligence, and the pressures of the norms around intelligence, and the racial stereotypes around intelligence, if you have a black child who can't sit for eight hours, you know, it's this compounding of people making gross, you know, assumptions about black people's intelligence and their worthiness in the space. And so then, of course, that child is deemed as special needs, right? Or they need remediation, or they have an issue, they have a learning disability. And it's like, what would it be like, just like you said, if it the school day was broken up, if it was, you know, on their own time, I can say, you know, I think, somebody mentioned, you know, COVID and working like, right now working from home with the emotional labor that I do, I get so zonked at midday. I have, (I'm not sending this to my co-workers...)  I eat lunch, I take a nap. And then I just like get up early, now. Do you know what I mean? Like I just do work, I get up, at 6. I go to bed at like 10 or 11. And then I'm so much more capable of doing the work that has been assigned to me. Rather than being like I have to work 9 to 5, that means I'm a good worker. It's like, my brain needs rest, my heart needs rest. And that's not about disability, that's just this situation is not accessible.

Jheanelle
I just wanted to add something around like disability awareness.  I feel like where it lands is like an inspiration-porn, kind of, at least that's where I feel like awareness is. We mentioned representation. And I think a majority of the representation for disabled people, if there is ever any, i s either tokenized, and barely ever shows disabled people as people.  We all look different, you know, the intersectionality of it all, like, you know, sexuality, race, etc. So it's barely ever represented like that, like, you're a person. It's more of like, just an inspiration; a disabled person doing what they have to do, because of the structural factors around that, they're limiting them, that people like, go like applauding and just like, "Oh, my God, if they can do it, what's your excuse?" Horrible. I do want to commend Holland-Bloorview Kids Rehab, they have a campaign out, where  it's, they're arguing for our presentation, like, they're advocating for representation. 

Kids need, like, I wish when I was growing up, I saw like myself represented in media, and just, like a person. Like, that's what we are, you know, why can't we just exist the way we are without being like, made a poster child, an inspiration, poster child. You know, just that representation, just as humans, is very important. And I think there's that one aspect of it, and we talked about it last week, where the movies... there's a movie out called "Witches" with Anne Hathaway, where they portrayed disability, deformity, as like, inherently associated with evilness, and scary. And I think, you know, that kind of pushes back, strides that, you know, people have made for kids to feel comfortable in their bodies. Or  for a kid to see a body that looks different, to not feel scared of it, or to not look at it as weird. And you know, I think society has , like social media, this is like a constant thing where I know on TikTok, there was like, a viral challenge where they showed, like, parents during COVID, showed like a image of a disabled person to their kids saying that this is their new teacher, and recorded kids reaction for laughs and like, we need to move beyond this, you know?

Alex
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I you know, the pop culture-junkie representation is such a part of how I process the world around me. And, you know, I can't remember if I mentioned this last time we talked, but, you know, my roommate was watching Howl's Moving Castle, and it has Mr. Turnip, who's like, basically a scarecrow that just  hops a lot. And I'm like, why am I feeling more represented by an animated scarecrow than I typically do? In most media? You know, what I mean? And, as a kid, I was really drawn to Tigger, you know, cuz he hopped a lot. It's a reach, either to me, like, I'm going to these characters that aren't even human, just to feel seen. And I think that's why Sins Invalid, like, struck such a deep chord in me because their approaching the work from an intersectional lens. And so it's not just about disability, it's about how the queerness and disability come together. 

How do race and disability interplay? You know, generally, you're talking about inspiration porn, and it's like, man, I'm just trying to get bare minimum, like good disability representation. I'm not even out here being like, Can we get good queer disability representation? Am I gonna see a queer BIPOC disabled person, like, slow down, even though I mean, like, I feel like that's how much I am at a point where I don't feel like we're afforded these things typically, but then there's really amazing work like Superfest which celebrates international perspectives of disability, right? And it's a film festival for and by disabled people. So it does exist, right. It's just like, these things don't get caught up in the mainstream. And then, like you said, these mainstream images continued to reinforce either inspiration-porn or this vilification of disabled bodies in a way where it plays out in society.  You know, I went to a wedding, it was two years ago, and you know, it's a queer wedding, I'm having a good time. I'm drinking, it's an open bar, right? I danced, had a great night, the next day, somebody walked past me, and he was like, "hey, you're my hero." And I'm like, for why? Right? Because I was dancing and having a good time? Like, is that how little you think of disabled people that you're like, "Whoa, he's like, having a good time and enjoying himself." I'm like, No, I'm drunk, like, Who are your heroes, you know?

Jheanelle
And you're not locked away in a closet somewhere, like being hidden from the world because of your disability!

Alex
Right, laying in bed.

Day
Alex, we chatted awhile ago, just about, you know, when we go on to your website, for instance, which I encourage everybody to do that, you know, there's no separating out of your professional work as a mental health counselor, or your work as, you know, an activist or a person who puts workshops on. And I wonder if you could just chat a bit about that decision, to not separate all these different parts of yourself out.

Alex

It's been a very intentional process, it feels very precarious, to be honest. The more that I immerse myself in the working world, the more that I hear how people talk about work, right? And they're like, "in my personal life", or "in my professional life", and I think, the pandemic examples that we're talking about... you know. I mean, literally, these lives are happening there together.  Working at an AIDS nonprofit, where we're, we're trying to, like, center racial justice, we're having uprising around George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, and all of these black lives that have been lost.  You can't ask black people to just come into work and be like, no, this is your work life, leave your personal life out. And so I'm really working to integrate those selves to model the importance of, of exploring how those things impact each other, how they can nourish each other.  I live both and at the same time. Your energy is not allocated separately. They cause an impact on each other. 

I know, Alisha, during the planning call, brought up really great themes around sustainability and longevity of the work, how do we take care of ourselves. And I think the more that I explore my activism as like, art, as self-expression, as healing, unless it was like work, you know, it's just like a part of the way that I exist, I think I take it more seriously as something that needs tending that needs respect and needs reverence. And also for myself, to not overdo it because then, you know, I can't, I can't show up long term. Disability Justice is inviting us to do this work sustainably. So how do I listen to my body and my mind, and my foot is such an interesting alarm bell, right? If I stand on my foot for too long, it starts to hurt. And it will get to a point where I need to sit down. And and I think, to me, that's what Disability Justice is teaching us, it's like, my, my foot is being like, "Girl, sit down, stop, you know, take a breath, slow down." And if I listened to that, then why am I not listening to like, I'm tired, I need to go to bed early. I can't take another gig this week. I facilitated too many times in one day, you know? 

I think there are so many invitations there and I'll just close with, you know, my exploration of pleasure activism, you know, adrienne maree brown, proposing this theory or this way of embodying activism as this irresistible practice. We should find activism to be deeply pleasurable, like, I think work, you know, professionalism is so devoid of pleasure. It's so devoid of joy most time, you know? I'm starting to zoom calls, I'm playing disco, if you're with me, it's not gonna be like a really dry day because this is hard work, you know? And so  we have to have fun. I partake in substances, right? I have sex. I'm a person, and I want to experience those things. And so as an activist, I want to, I want to talk about my sexuality, I want to talk about how I employ harm reduction in order to let off some steam, but do so in a way where it works for me, and I'm taking care of myself. And I think if we act like those things don't exist if I, if I do those things, and it replicates this idea that professionals are people who come in, and they're wearing nice clothes, and they say nice words, and they don't ruffle anybody's feathers, and it's like, No, I want to go into a space and be like, you know, obviously don't lead with , I had a slutty weekend, but like, if we want to talk about it, and that's related to how I'm finding agency and autonomy in my  queer, you know, BIPOC, disabled, body, that feels very ripe for this conversation. 

Alisha
I also just want to add what you said about the professional thing, I'm obsessed with this lawyer out of BC right now, she's indigenous and amazing Myrna McCallum. She is spearheading this awareness movement in the legal profession, called trauma informed lawyering. And a lot of it has to do with like, knowing how trauma manifests, and people just interacting with the legal system. But a lot of it comes from the fact that people tend to separate their, like personhood and professional life. And there are created barriers between, like effective representation. And like you, if you put up this wall of like, I'm wearing a suit, I'm behind a desk, I'm, you know, like here to just do my work and just leave. So it's really about bringing yourself back in to the space and it actually just makes you a better professional. Because you're able to, like, deal with, like, interact with your clients in a much more fruitful way. And I yeah, I just, I really responded to what you're saying, Alex,

Day
One of the themes that we've been sort of touching on a little bit here, and there is just sustainability. And I wonder if anyone else wants to talk about that aspect of their experience and how you're learning to navigate working with sustainability in mind in terms of your own energy and what you can bring to this work.

Beau
I'll talk a little bit about productivity and maintaining a good healthy work cycle, we're talking about we we've been discussing having some check ins, about particularly physical, physical health, during the, during the pandemic, and for people with disabilities and without. And you know, I think we've been given this opportunity where we are working and studying from home where we can really identify the hours in the day while more productive and put those two best used. And so I know for myself, it's been really good learning experience, being able to learn remotely and utilize these hours of the day when I'm most attentive, and, you know, dedicated to that, and then when there's time to do physical work to get in shape and stay in shape, um, you know, devoting that time to that task. So, I think it's really interesting that we get this opportunity, and hopefully, that'll carry on past COVID, whenever at the end of this virus is, but hopefully we can take those lessons and move forward with them.

Jheanelle
For sure, everyone mentioned it's really like being attuned to your body. And, like really recognizing and being aware. Um, you know, for me, when I'm burnt out, or when I'm tired, I get really irritable. If I start noticing that I'm irritable, I say like, I need to take a break. Like, stay off social media, you know, minimize your intake of my intake of news, and just do nothing. And I think Alisha last week, I mentioned it, just reframing this whole idea of the lazy day or laziness. But yeah, just have rest and being comfortable having rest being comfortable relaxing, like for the longest time I've always felt guilty because I was like, Oh my god, I have so much to do or like oh my god, I don't have anything to do I need something to do. 

So you know, that's that whole like capital system just kind of ingrained in our psyche of like, our bodies being tied to or bodies or value being tied to like how like our labor and how much we can use it. So just being comfortable, like not judging yourself for needing rest. It's normal. So like, I binge watch some shows like Netflix has girlfriends and Sister Sister. Yeah, so I'm just like reliving my childhood. And just not judging myself for that. So it's definitely being aware. It's like, you know, Alex mentioned like, you know, physical like physically, like, you know, when it you have to stop. But, you know, mentally it's like we don't draw boundaries. And you know, I think Beau just mentioned how the lines have been blurred now more than ever, with remote work, where people just feel like they have access to you all the time. So it's just really dry, saying no, just having hard boundaries, and do what works best for you really.

Alisha
I think also, I second everything that has been said, but I think also, maybe my context is different because I come from, like community like SBA is run by a board. So I'm always in working with other people. One of the tenants of Disability Justice is recognizing wholeness. I interpret that to mean, like, you always, well, it's in the they've written it, but like, you always have worth, and it's sort of led to this unique understanding of ability and talent and capacity. And I think recognizing that opens you up to a whole set of resources that you may not have realized you had. So then you can sort of rely on other people, while meeting them in the middle sort of thing, and you don't have to take on everything by yourself. And so you can, you know, take that brass when you need it and feel like you're not letting anybody down, because you are you've shared the work.

Alex
Absolutely, I really appreciate that. You bringing in recognizing wholeness, you know, Jheanelle, speaking to like, anti-capitalism, you know, as another Disability Justice principle, which, by the way, I really didn't know you were talking about like the capitalists like having their money or freaking out and I just love this idea of like a bunch of like, older white men being like our body. But, you know, I just want to as Alisha brought in like that, that lazy idea or interrogating and pushing back against from that intersectional lens who's called lazy, right? Who gets to get away with being lazy, right? Is it like, you know, white, affluent influencers on Instagram, like in their mansions being like, I'm having a lazy day, you know, it's like, okay, cool, like you're being glorified for that, you know, black and brown people are vilified if they need to, like, rely on benefits in order to make ends meet, because the systems have created these inaccessible spaces for them to like, thrive, right. And then so they're like, lazy because they're depending on the system. 

It's like, that's why Disability Justice is about interdependence is because the system, the state creates a state where like, we have to depend on each other because that's not going to give us what we need. So, I think just, it's not just about laziness and being like this ablest concept, it can also be racist, it can be classist. And, you know, both speaking to like, what works for your body, what you need, it's like that, I think it's so important. It's not that you should be working out because you should be working out, it's like, does that feel good for you? Do you like want to feel that in your body, then that's how you should approach this. And that's not anti-capitalist approach. It's like, Where's their value and what you want to do not because you should be doing it, so you're productive. You know, how do you especially in the time, right, like Beau, so beautifully put, it's like, the things that we're learning now should carry us through this pandemic. 

So many people are clawing to like, I wish it was back to normal, I want to go back to how it was. It's like, girls of color coming from inside the house, that's how we got here. You know, so like, we can't go back there. We need to take what we learned forward and really challenge, like, why a pandemic struck, and we're like, I need to learn Spanish, now's the time! You know, it's like, if you didn't know it, then like, just focus on you, like, take care of yourself. And then maybe you can get those payments. But like, I think, yeah, the wholeness that Alisha brought up like, I've had to reckon with that in my house. Feeling like I don't contribute as much because I'm like, I'm not doing things in the garden, or it's harder for me to clean. But then I'm like, I'm like a reservoir of emotional labor. Like, try me a process. Anyway, you know, so that's also a value and if we move away from like, only these things are valuable or that there's like a hierarchy. Then it breaks up in this like, this entire constellation of ways that everybody can be in community and like, contribute and be collective as opposed to like this independent like, I'm gonna do everything and I'll take care of myself because that's, that's how I get through at the end of the day.

Day
Yeah, I think that U of T has a particular kind of culture around valuing overwork,

performative busy-ness, and that kind of thing. I wonder, you know, I wonder how

students and Jheanelle, you just graduated last year, you know how you managed to

navigate that and put Disability Justice principles, forefront in trying to navigate those

kinds of things, and the systems that we have in place at U of T.

Jheanelle
So, for me, I, like other than getting over like those, like Alisha mentioned, a feeling like badly for requesting accommodations. I also think that the culture and like having professors who are also like, I say, disability aware, but you know, like accessibility aware, are just really thoughtful, and accommodating professors, because I like I was fortunate in my Faculty of Social Work. They were pretty accommodating, they were very understanding, they understood like, accessibility means they understood the pressures of school, and think a lot of other departments are like that. So the culture of like you mentioned, like performative, like busy-ness, the culture of pressure, that, you know, if you're not like studying, you're doing nothing, like your worth is tied to how wrapped up in schoolwork you are, how late you're staying up. 

So, I had a really great experience, you know, dealing with accommodations, which helped break that barrier down for me with asking, because it was just embedded in the culture of the faculty. And the professors were also very thoughtful, recognizing, like, not only disability needs, but that's the whole point too, is that, you know, these accommodations weren't just for students with disabilities, like, you recognize us school, junior masters, or just doing any degree is very stressful. There's also your life outside of school, like, there are lots of demands on you. And like, maybe you have to hand that paper in like a like a week or so later. But it's just like developing that partnership to work. Just so you know, you can complete the tasks that you need to do.

Beau
I think, I'd like to just say that my experience at the university has been incredible. I mean, I do a huge shout out to everyone at Accessibility Services, who has made this, you know, going back and get, you know, pursuing higher education possible for me. Also, when I brought it to the attention of my accessibility advisor that I wanted to play sports, she directed me to Robin and getting a position and being able to speak on panels and having these opportunities. The university, I believe, is doing a great job of unexpected, like Accessibility Services and diversity and equity. It's all this collective effort is just really great. And I'd like to say that my experience has been fantastic. And not say that, obviously, things can always improve, because they definitely, definitely can improve. And that's, that's what we're working towards.

Day
Alisha, do you want to add anything to that?

Alisha
Yeah, yeah. So first of all, Jheanelle said something along the lines of like, you have a life outside of the university. And I, that's totally the truth. But in my personal context, so I actually did both my undergrad and my, like, I'm doing my law degree, both at U of T. So I've had wildly different experiences. The undergrad here is very large. So you kind of feel like you're lost. I was in the cinema faculty, and I learned a lot of valuable self-advocacy skills. So we actually do like workshops on this. The, the Accessibility Services, they're great. But sometimes the way they interact with students requires a certain kind of articulation that I feel like is not inherent to many disabled students, like, especially ones who are just coming to terms with it. 

So like, I know people who are just accessing accommodations right now and they, they explained to me like what they're going to ask for and they sort of couch it in like this explanation and like justification for it. Like, in my experience, that has been exactly the opposite of what you need to do, you sort of need to go into your appointments with doctors, accommodation, people, anyone who's asking you anything and sort of be firm and what you know, to be true, just from your lived experience you, like, obviously explain if they ask you to explain and provide documentation, whatever, but there's no reason to sort of, like need to provide a justification. And I feel like, that took me a really long time to learn.

Jheanelle
I'm also like, just an extension of like, within the school, I was part of my degree, I needed to do field education. And I think that was something that was lacking with regard to attitudes towards disabled people. And, you know, just accessibility, like, yeah, on paper there is like, you know, this former Yeah, if you need accommodations, but like, the attitudinal barriers that I've experienced when I was doing my field placement was huge. And I somewhat felt, you know, a lack of support. Because maybe people just didn't take it as seriously as other forms of oppression, which is, like, I think is a constant theme for like people with, like disabilities, like people will just gaslight you and like, wasn't like that. 

So, like, you know, that's just something else to like, consider with, like, the culture, not like, just at U of T, but just like, by extension, like the world, lets me just like during my field placement, and not feeling accommodated. Or just like, you know, my first field placement was in a hospital, and because of my experiences in a hospital and conveying that, you know, I felt like, they, you know, the educators are judging me, thinking that I can handle it, because of my previous experiences. So just kind of like, telling me what I can handle, like that paternalization, happens a lot. And then, you know, not being taken seriously, when you like, call out the ableism. So there's like, that kind of twofold thing where one like the culture of like, not accommodating people or not considering, like, the pressure that like your actual, like life outside of school, but also like minimizing or dismissing, like, your experience of ableism. But, you know, I will say that I had a really great accessibility counselor. And I wish I went to her about like, my concerns, because like, you know, she went hard for me after and was able to implement, like, um, like, workshops on ableism, on disability, for field educators, because I think that's important, as well.

Day
Absolutely, yeah, this has been a really amazing and rich conversation that's given us lots to consider. And I think Disability Justice is it's just such a robust framework, that for me is a non-disabled person has really kind of opened my eyes up to how nested all these different forms of oppression are. And so, you know, for me, I'm just so like, my mind is really just working through constantly like how I can incorporate these principles into my work and the platform that I have as a facilitator at U of T. And so maybe, you know, we can end up on that question is just how is Disability Justice in the forefront for you, as you move forward as organizers on campus? And how can we kind of hold accountable? That same principle for, you know, the administrators and the deans and all the folks that were, that are decision makers at U of T?

Alisha
Yeah, I think so. There are a lot of things that you have two students that have been advocating for of the admin, most notably better mental health supports for students. And, and especially, I mean, I don't know if the conversation is as live as it was a little while ago, but the mandated leave of absence policy has also been very contentious. I think a lot of it comes from on the admin side, and this is pure speculation, I have no like, background knowledge of this or I'm not speaking for anybody when I say this, but I think a lot of it is coming from fear of liability. Especially the lap, like, essentially, it's just like, you're not UMTS problem, you're someone else's problem, but you're not U of T's problem. And I think it clearly has not worked. And they're clearly liable for things now, like, maybe not legally, but at least morally speaking, like, the recent tragedies that have happened on campus, no one's gonna look at them and say: yeah, you did, like, all you could do you did your due diligence. That's not. So I think there, I think more attention needs to be paid to student demands, and in a way that doesn't see them as inherently conflicting. Like, we're not student activists are not inherently against the admin just because like, we often come into conflict like that, but it's not. We don't have to be we don't want to be really, that would be the perfect thing would be for me not having to do this. You know.

Day
Thank you. Anyone else want to add to that, before we wrap up? Janine?

Janine
Thank you so much. This was first of all, so informative. Secondly, a fresh of breath of air.  Sorry, bilingual brain. But I just, I wanted to sort of ask you guys more about this concept of self care and community care, and how you guys have engaged with community care during this time, whether it's advocacy, for accessibility, kind of helping out people in the community, but also taking that time for yourself. So what was that looked like for you guys to have that balance of being part of the community and being active in the space, but also having that downtime for yourself and taking care of yourself, because I can imagine it, it gets overwhelming. Sometimes just hearing a lot of stories, especially during COVID.

Beau
I think, for myself, taking care has been maintaining some semblance of a schedule, that's just my personal way of keeping myself in line. Just you can see the calendar in the background, I just, you know, kind of have everything regimented. And that's, you know, obviously, not everybody's thing and also finding a way to stay active in the house. For a lot of physically disabled people staying physically active, super important. So well, it's important for everybody, but it's important because at least in my case, body deterioration, atrophy happens really quickly. So maintaining that level of fitness definitely as has been a stabilizer, 

Alex
I can add, you know, that that question of self-care, taps really into what I find Disability Justice to be another invitation to look to interdependence. Right. And, and how can I, you know, you mentioned community care, right? Like, how can I get out of my own head that like, I have to be the like, first and last off on like, how to take care of myself? How can I turn to community and offer these this care mutually, I mean, there are certain things that I'm trying to practice about, kind of my own boundaries, my own limitations, you know, like a shout out to Day and Robin for having patience with I put like a email, an auto reply on my email that's like, hey, just going down, give me like a week or two to reply to you, you know, which I had never done before. And I feel like it really communicates, it's just being transparent, right? Because I couldn't have just been like, I'll reply in a week or two. And not tell people, that's what I'm doing. Because, in essence, a lot of people reaching out to me, has not paid me yet to earn that kind of response time. 

So you know, but, you know, there's also that that piece where you're modeling like, Hey, we need to make, I think somebody mentioned like social media breaks, like making it known, like, I'm not just available, like, I'm going through a lot, you know, and I'm trying to take care of myself and reorient my focus and my energy. So when you let other people know that your practice I think it helps them reorient with you, as opposed to just kind of keeping it inside. And I'll just offer one last thing that I've seen. Several people do really beautifully, particularly around like surgeries, or intense like medical procedures as well, like create the disabled people in Excel sheets was just like, like, just you'll see some real magic and it's like, you know, this community care thing where it's like, who is able to bring me a meal to is down to hang out, you know, I had a friend where their experience meant that they were like, you know, it was during COVID. They got top surgery and so like, who wants to do zoom calls, you know, like, we'll do karaoke nights, you know, and, and so people just like fill in what you can do. And I feel like if we were more as a culture and a practice of it, that's a beautiful response to like a medical procedure but like what if you're like, you know, Alisha's gonna go through like exams, you know, what if it's like, a bad breakup? What if it's, you know, these kind of circumstances where it doesn't have to be I just moved, you know, how do we kind of create this thing where it's like, I need help. And I'm asking for it. And that doesn't mean we could actually means I'm really strong to name that I need help. And to ask for that, I would love to see more practices like that.

Alisha
I also have one other thing to add very practically, I started doing this year in like mid-September, I actually have an app on my phone that tracks my hours and it tracks my hours for each like class I'm taking each project I'm taking is the greatest thing I've ever done. Because if I'm feeling behind or something and I like cognitively, I just can't do it anymore, I can still look back at my like week of work and be like, I put in all that time already. Like this is totally valid for me to take a break now. And it's really, it lets me do things that I would never have done otherwise.

Day
So I'm just gonna say, let's call it a conversation for the ages. I loved being part of this. And I really just want to give each and every one of the panelists, my heartfelt thanks for all the energy, your honesty and for sharing what you've learned, and for being vulnerable. I know that's really tough. But I think it does a lot of good for people to see how you are navigating these experiences in life and, and making a party out of it and making yourself shine and sparkle. And yeah, so thanks to Beau, and to Alisha to Jheanelle, and thank you so much to Alex for bringing your special brand of magic and gorgeousness to this conversation and to the world that we're in now. And I just want to say thank you so much, and wish each and every one of the people who attended tonight, you know, kindness to yourself and patience and just to take some of these learnings that we've had tonight and apply them to your own life as we move forward into the winter and to a bit of the unknown.

Janine
Thank you so much to all of our panelists for sharing their insights with us. And thank you to our partners for holding space for this essential conversation. Special thanks to the Hart House Student podcasting team for producing today's episode. You are listening to The West Meeting Room on CUIT  89.5 FM. We're here every Saturday at 7am. And you can find all of our episodes on our Hart House Stories page on SoundCloud. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Instagram @HartHouseStories and Twitter @HHpodcasting. Thank you so much for listening, take good care of each other and we'll be back with you next week.

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